Taxes

[MadMike]

The stadiums in Pittsburgh were *not* built with tax money, nor were taxes raised to build them. The public part of the funding came from the RAD money that is collected with the 1% extra sales tax in Allegheny County. 25% of that 1% goes to the county, another 25% goes back to the municipalities, and the other 50% goes to fund libraries/zoos/museums, and yes, the ballparks.

Sounds like it's still from tax dollars to me, even if it is a small percentage. No offense, but what you just said sounds like the typical double-talk one might hear from our elected officials.

Of course those same people would have cried oceans of tears had the Pirates or especially the Steelers had told the city to GFY and leave.

Personally, I'd tell them not to let the door hit their ass on the way out. Admittedly, I'm not a sports fan, but even if I was, I don't think that's something that the taxpayers should have to support.

[CancelMyService]

Sounds like it's still from tax dollars to me, even if it is a small percentage. No offense, but what you just said sounds like the typical double-talk one might hear from our elected officials.

Basically its a case of using money from a fund that was already in place (that yes, did come from taxes) rather than instituting a new tax just for the stadiums.

It may sound like splitting hairs, but the anti tax people did a very good job convincing people that the 1% extra tax came into existing *because* of the stadiums, when the opposite is true.

And honestly, while non sports fans are always quick with the "bah, let 'em leave" response, local sports teams bring in a HUGE amount of money. When you're talking a town the size of Pittsburgh with a fanbase as large and crazed as Steeler fans, you're talking about serious income to the city.

[protege]

Sounds like it's still from tax dollars to me, even if it is a small percentage. No offense, but what you just said sounds like the typical double-talk one might hear from our elected officials.

That's how I see it too. I don't care if it was from money they already had--it's *still* tax dollars, and still came out of *my* pocket in one way or another. Also, if it didn't cause the sales tax rate to go up, it's still an odd instance of timing

Personally, I'd tell them not to let the door hit their ass on the way out. Admittedly, I'm not a sports fan, but even if I was, I don't think that's something that the taxpayers should have to support.

Exactly. Why should I be supporting a spoiled sports franchise? Those idiots have millions. They want a stadium, *they* should be supporting it. Oh, and BTW, we still haven't paid for the *last* stadium either. Yep, we're still paying on the debt incurred to build Three Rivers way back in 1970!

The reason why people are pissed about the stadiums, is that our government *ignored* us over it. There was an election to decide on the issue. The people voted it down...and the city and state ignored us, and did it anyway. *That* is why people are pissed, and why our county government was shaken up shortly afterwards.

Now the city's having financial problems--they've already cut back on services by shutting down schools, fire and police stations, and cut back transit routes. Gotta love it when their priorities are in order

[CancelMyService]

The schools, police, fire, and transit cutbacks can be traced back to the wonderful Bush tax cuts. Again less money to states/municipalities means programs don't get funded. Also the state makes sure that Philly's transportation gets funded but PAT gets told to find its own money. That's why Onorato had to commit political suicide and implement the drink tax, he was pretty much told to go screw himself by the state.

The reason why people are pissed about the stadiums, is that our government *ignored* us over it. There was an election to decide on the issue. The people voted it down...and the city and state ignored us, and did it anyway. *That* is why people are pissed, and why our county government was shaken up shortly afterwards.

What happened was the original plan was to raise taxes to pay for the stadiums, which was voted down. Then Plan B was to use existing revenues to pay for them. The anti tax zealots (and when I say that I primarily mean the right wing Rush wannabes on KDKA AM) then went around telling people that the government went around and raised their taxes anyway when they didn't, and it's something that most people in this area believe to this day.

When you come down to it, if the stadiums were never built the money would have went to the zoo or the museums or something of that nature instead. You can definitely make a case that it would have been a better use, but its not as if the money wouldn't still be collected.

Also, people in Pittsburgh have to realize that we're not New York or Chicago. Aside from the significant economic impact. a lot of our identity as a city comes from our sports teams, and the impact of one or both of them leaving would have been devastating. It would have made Pittsburgh seem like a minor league town instead of a major city capable of supporting professional sports, and those are the things companies look at when deciding where to locate their buisnesses. Perception is reality. If we come off as minor league, we won't attract the big time interests. The Steelers alone usually have 3-4 games on national prime time television and that gives the city more publicity than any advertising campaign the city council could think of.

[MadMike]

What happened was the original plan was to raise taxes to pay for the stadiums, which was voted down. Then Plan B was to use existing revenues to pay for them.

...which doesn't change the fact that tax money was used to pay for stadiums, which is what the people objected to. Isn't it supposed to be "Power of the People?" Well, the people didn't want it, so it shouldn't have happened. But these days, it seems to be "Power of the Rich People, and the rest can go fuck themselves."

If I go broke, I'm told I'm not living within my means. If the government goes broke, they simply raise taxes, like the taxpayers are some sort of ATM that never runs out of money.

[CancelMyService]

Again, I'm not disagreeing with you in principle, it just bothers me that the people who were mad about the new stadiums had to lie about it in order to rile up the folks when it wasn't needed.

[machinest]

One thing I have always heard about sports stadiums (several studies ) is that they do not bring new money into an area they just redirect money from other entertainment spending restaurants ,entertainment parks theaters and movie houses to there own pockets.

[Boozy]

That doesn't seem right to me. The professional sports teams in Toronto, a city that neighbours mine, draws people in from a huge radius. I've driven an hour into Toronto for many baseball games, but I wouldn't drive for an hour to go to a restaurant or movie theatre. I can do that in my home city.

The hockey lockout in 2004-2005 nearly crippled the entire city. Of course, Canadians didn't really have any desire to live that year anyway.

[AFPheonix]

You'd think they'd bring money TO local restaurants and hoteliers rather than take it from them. People want to eat something other than nasty hot dogs and watered down beer. I know whenever we go into town to watch a Timbers game or Women's World Cup matches in Portland we'd usually visit a local eatery or pub before the game.