Computer piracy debates

[Hyena Dandy]

The problem that often comes up with debates about internet piracy is that internet pirates come down to several different groups of people.

Using games as an example

Some people will just not pay anything, for anything. Those are the sort of people who, for example, pirate the Humble Indie Bundle. This bugs me. Unless you're practicing civil disobedience against the capitalist system, then I seriously have an issue.

Some people pirate a game to basically get a demo - They'll pay for it if they think it's worth it. If they don't think it's worth it, they'll just stop. I don't have a problem with this.

Some people pirate games because they CAN'T get them legally. I couldn't find a legal copy of a game. So, I pirated it.

Some people will pirate a game that they think is worth SOME money, but not as much as the people are asking for it. This I find a kind of gray area.

Some people will only pirate from major developers, who can 'take the hit,' but not from smaller ones who can't.

The problem with the debate is that everyone acts like everyone is one type of pirate or another. And then from there, basically declares "Pirating games is terrible" or "Pirating is fine, and anyone saying that there's a problem is a corporate whore."

Myself, I kind of fall in the middle of this. SOme cases I can see where pirating a game is something I'd be down with. Others I think that you really shouldn't.

I think that it's an issue far more complicated than anyone makes it out to be.

[Seifer]

I fall into the category of accepting people who pirate things to get a "demo." I don't think it's a problem to watch a movie online if it's just to see if it's any good. If the movie is good enough to purchase, go purchase it. If it's a pile of steaming shit straight out of Hollywood, then close the window and move on - no money wasted.

[bara]

I have not pirated anything for several years now. Most of what I want is able to purchased without much trouble. If I dont think its worth what they are charging, then I just wait till they arent charging as much.

But that last time I did pirate, and most of the times it was because I simply couldnt locate it anywhere else. Other times I was simply 'renting' it to see if I really did want to buy it. Now I just wait for my friend to play it first and get his opinion.

[Andara Bledin]

You forgot a class of pirate:

Those who actually own a copy of the game but due to onerous copy protection either choose to or have to get a pirated copy with the DRM stripped from it.

One notable experience I had with SecuROM had it not recognize my optical drive, so it insisted that I didn't have a legitimate copy of the game and was running an ISO. The particularly facepalm-worthy solution to that was to actually run an ISO of the game, which SecuROM had no reaction to. >_<

^-.-^

[Hyena Dandy]

You forgot a class of pirate:

Those who actually own a copy of the game but due to onerous copy protection either choose to or have to get a pirated copy with the DRM stripped from it.

One notable experience I had with SecuROM had it not recognize my optical drive, so it insisted that I didn't have a legitimate copy of the game and was running an ISO. The particularly facepalm-worthy solution to that was to actually run an ISO of the game, which SecuROM had no reaction to. >_<

^-.-^

Yeah, there are other things. There's a lot of different people and reasons, was my point, and that so many debates try to cut it down to only "Good" or "Bad" Oones.

[TheHuckster]

The whole DRM thing is adding more and more to the debate on both sides, and I'm a bit peeved by the methods producers are using to fight back. Especially this "online-only" stuff. Gone will be the days when the Internet goes out and I think, "Well, at least I can play a solo game." Plus, after the company goes belly up or they stop supporting the game, I'm SOL. Then there's the whole privacy thing where, no matter what, they are possibly storing my game habits.

However, one argument I have always disliked about pirating games is the whole "[big_conglomerate] won't care." Your one act of pirating the game is a drop in the bucket for sure, but when you spread that justification around, it's no longer a mere drop in the bucket. And that piracy activity as a whole does have an effect on not only the company, but the thousands of people who work in those companies.

It has the same effect as shoplifting from a Wal-Mart. Yes, you just stuck it to the big box store that likely shut down your aunt and uncle's little store, but that lost revenue can also have an effect on people's jobs.

[lordlundar]

Gabe Newell (president of Valve) has probably put it best.

Piracy is almost always a service problem and not a pricing problem

And he's largely correct. There are cases of people will pirate simply because it's free but those are in the vast minority. Most of the time it's because the pirated version is often a superior product due to DRM being stripped out that is often easier to get. Meanwhile set-ups like Steam and GoG.com have games for better prices that work well and (for the most part) have little to no DRM issues and they make money hand over fist.

[bex1218]

I recently had to pirate a couple of songs cause it was only available in the UK (just for the songs), and I didn't want to spend the money on a CD I already had from iTunes (as much as I loved the band).

[Nekojin]

I am generally of the opinion that if you purchase a movie/TV show/song/album in one format, you should be entitled to convert it to any other format as you see fit, and shouldn't be "required" to buy a new version once a new media format comes out. Buy Young Frankenstein on DVD, copy it to your computer and iPod guilt-free. You've paid for it. The biggest problem is that the media companies do not want to clearly nail down whether you've bought a physical item or a license, because they benefit from being able to play both ends against the middle. They can act like it's a physical item when it suits them (getting you to buy the newest edition when your old media wears out), and they can act like it's a license when it's in their best interests.

[crashhelmet]

I used to pirate games for reason #2 and Mafia II is to blame for that.

Words cannot describe how pissed off I was to spend $60 on a brand new, highly hyped, and predicted "Game of the Year" only to beat it in less than 8 hours. I don't think it's even worth the $20 it may go for now on discount shelves.

Because of that game, I started pirating games to "rent" them if I couldn't find them in a Redbox. I should probably start using Gamefly too.

The only time i would jump out and buy a game brand new, paying $60 for it, would be something in the Arkham Asylum/City, Assassin's Creed, Madden, or NCAA Footbal series. Due to the lack of changes in the 2 football games form year to year, I don't buy every one and due to the ginormous number of bugs in AC3, I probably won't rush out to buy the next one.

[jedimaster91]

Some people pirate a game to basically get a demo - They'll pay for it if they think it's worth it. If they don't think it's worth it, they'll just stop. I don't have a problem with this.

Some people pirate games because they CAN'T get them legally. I couldn't find a legal copy of a game. So, I pirated it.

This is generally where I fall, but with anime/manga instead of games. For one thing, I want to be able to preview something before I spend money on it and bring it into my home. Especially if there might be material I find objectionable. If I end up not liking a particular show, I can just delete the files from my computer and I'm not out any money. If I like it, I'll buy it later if I can get it. Which is sometimes difficult with imports because not everything gets picked up. Which brings me to a theory of mine:

Personally, I think the anime companies have a love/hate relationship with the pirates. Companies like Funimation and Geneon aren't going to want to import, translate, and find voice actors for a product that won't make them money. So a smart move would be to keep an eye on which shows are popular on the torrent sites and bring those over. Then dress it up with some cast interviews, making of featurettes, and a spiffy keychain or something and even those who already have the pirated copies may be tempted to actually shell out money for a legit copy.

[Ginger Tea]

You wouldn't steal a car, you wouldn't steal a handbag etc, you wouldn't get this invariably unskippable advert on an mp4.

I have an unlimited card for cineworld that I have not used since Predators, I either fell asleep after working the early shift and didn't feel up to going for a later showing once I woke up, or I was working the late shift which gave me no options in screen times on some days (really bad finishes instead of oh I can still catch the 9 showing).
So I have paid (the cinema not the movie studios) 15 or whatever it is now a month to not see any movies, so I see the odd torrent me getting my moneys worth, but it's only a film I really want to see cos I missed it and it's too expencive on DVD right now, if I had seen it and wanted a DVD of it later on I would wait till it was a fiver or so, so new release price for a movie that might suck, no thank you.

If the movie sucked and I saw it in the cinema, no biggie, afaik I could see every film that week, hell spend the whole day screen hopping as long as I had a ticket for the movie in question and not get kicked out for abusing the system, most I did was a double bill once every third week when I had my long weekend, so I would not loose out financially on a turkey of a movie if I saw enough movies that month to make the subscription.

The whole must buy new version malarky, it dates back to the incompatible physical media days, had a betamax, well now that's gone your movie isn't going to play in your brand new VHS, have no fear, for the same money as you paid (or more) you can get it on VHS, try sticking a VHS in your PC same with DVD, so blu Ray has not enticed me (plus no TV let alone HDTV and only a 1280*1024 monitor, well I'm not going to benefit true HD just HD ready) we are spoilt by the ease of ripping a CD that movie studios knew once we got the chance with large hard drives we would do the same with movies and nipped that in the bud (for a while), but I'm a DVD shopahollic (or was till HMV closed in may and I've yet made it into town to go to the newly reopened branch) I used to get 15 DVD's at virgin mega store when they had their 5 for £30 or whatever it was sale, I had to stop that for a while as I accidentaly bought a movie twice when finding a 4th or 5th to get the bundle as I have a to watch pile that is, at a guess, 300 movies long, Virgin rebranded as zavvie then went to the wall when Woolworths tanked, so I migrated to HMV for all movies not just niche, but they never had the same kind of bundle prices.

I went to fopp (a former independant, now owned by HMV as it originally tanked too) as they had more interesting CD's and actually had the water margin box set saving me the hassle of ordering it online and the price was cheaper and the long box version not the digi pack one, so it's great for display but TBH it's in a comic long box in a storage unit near me as I don't have the space for all the movies I own.

So owning a DVD and torrenting a version to watch whenever is OK by my moral compas as I paid for it.
Granted whilst I'm getting that or the whole Xfiles etc, I am sending it out to people who may not ever pay for it, but once I have it fuck em.

I dislike region CD's where you may loose out on good songs due to not living in a country and to import the same CD you own for a few bonus songs at a higher mark up, yeah I can see that pre iTunes et al, the bonus tracks probably did the rounds more than the regular tracks.

Music I tend not to torrent (note I rarely if ever say pirate in this thread), artists are the least paid in the food chain, sure some bands get a million advance, but thats an advance not free money, then the lables paying for the studio time then owning the rights and then expecting the money to hire the studio back before the first royalty cheque is cut.

The few times I've torrented an album is either it is deleted and I am adverse to paying for mp3's seeing as I still buy CD's and rip them, at some point I will buy mp3's instead of CD's but not right now.
It's only available on import at £30, I do want the ry cooder Last man standing soundtrack as that was the best part of the film (that I finally found on DVD when visiting my brother for his birthday, buying myself £200 in movies from the way larger HMV there), not seen it on torrent searches at all, it's as if no one but me liked it, once I get a bank account that is purely for net purchaces, I will order it.

Region free movies, DVD/Blu ray don't like region free, hell your local censorship board might also take out some valid scenes, ever seen Enter the dragon with the Nunchuck scene missing?
I have, our betamax (pre 1984 video act) has the scene, the VHS did not, nor did any tv broadcast (which also cut other scenes), Nunchuck bad they say, OK at the time people were darwining themselves or atleast attempting to by immitating the moves of martial arts movies and that became the think of the children of the 80's, erm hello the movie is rated 18, although some have been reclassified to 15 perhaps that too.
Hell the Teenage mutant ninja/hero turtles had fucking nunchucks and the show was rated U or PG on VHS, yet I over 18, can not watch the nunchuck scene in an 18 rated movie, I think this was one of the turning points of it being reinstated I'm sure.

The DVD recut the scene back in, but how many movies do I watch in the UK that are significantly cut compared to the US release?
I want to see the movie, not have a head but cut because head buts are the thing now it seems (or in the early 00's)

if the BBFC cut a movie, then the bbc cut it even more, the wild bunch directors cut with more violence came out in the late 90's, previously it remained untouched by the bbfc, afaik it wasn't scenes cut for their benefit, it was just a deleted scene that on the whole didn't affect the movie that much, but pre directors cut, the bbc might as well show 15 minutes of the movie as they butchered it so much.

[SkullKing]

My opinions on the OP as follow:

Some people will just not pay anything, for anything. Those are the sort of people who, for example, pirate the Humble Indie Bundle. I think this is wrong

Some people pirate a game to basically get a demo - They'll pay for it if they think it's worth it. If they don't think it's worth it, they'll just stop. I am ok with this as long as you are being sincere and not finding some flaw just so you can justify to yourself not paying, and the game does not have a legal demo.

Some people pirate games because they CAN'T get them legally. I am ok with this, and actually think it is a good thing. (e.g.:"Bully" was censored here, and I consider pirating it an acceptable act of civil disobedience. I consider this kind of censorship wrong and think it is right to fight against it)

Some people will pirate a game that they think is worth SOME money, but not as much as the people are asking for it. I think this is wrong. You do not NEED the game. If you do not like it´s price then don´t enjoy the creators work or buy it on sale. They have the right to set how much they think their hard work is worth. An exception would be where the taxes make the thing prohibitively expensive and most of the money would got o the government. I think that is a grey area that is shirinking due to services like Steam and GOG

Some people will only pirate from major developers, who can 'take the hit,' but not from smaller ones who can't. this is better than pirating an indie game, but I think it depends on the case.

The problem with the debate is that everyone acts like everyone is one type of pirate or another. And then from there, basically declares "Pirating games is terrible" or "Pirating is fine, and anyone saying that there's a problem is a corporate whore."

I will also add people who pirate due to DRM. I know a person who deleted all his pirated Assassin´s creed games as soon as Ubisoft got rid of their secu-ROM and is slowly saving money and legally buying them again one at a time.

And there are people who pirate out of grudges: specifically because they do not like and want to harm the developer/publisher. I do not know about this, I think it depends.

I bought "Fallout: New Vegas" and wish I had pirated it: The developers dint´t see a dime of my money because their contract said they would only get royalties if the game got a metacritic score of 85 or higher and it got a 84.me angry.

[HYHYBT]

In the present day, there is *no* excuse for anything ever going the equivalent of out-of-print. If the copyright holder decides to make something unavailable by legal means, that's their own fault and nobody else's.

(Fixed content, at least. Things requiring ongoing maintenance and support are a bit different.)

[Nekojin]

I bought "Fallout: New Vegas" and wish I had pirated it: The developers dint´t see a dime of my money because their contract said they would only get royalties if the game got a metacritic score of 85 or higher and it got a 84.me angry.

Wut?

Seriously, that's the first time I've ever heard that one. Can you find me a reliable source?