Gun control in UK - A Total Failure

[ditchdj]

http://shock.military.com/Shock/vide...7&page=1&wh=wh

[Rapscallion]

Total failure? Hardly - from what it said, the gun owners who were licensed with guns that became illegal handed them over. I'd say that worked.

So, which side are you on? You don't actually say. I'd guess from the emotive tone of the video you linked to then you're on the side of guns for everyone who wants them. Note I said emotive, because that was a piece that played very much into the hearts of the people who were undecided.

Giving up your freedom - a main message. I'm not jailed. I can drive down the country to the southern coast, get on a train, and be in France in less than twelve hours. Alternatively, I could get on a plane and be in the US in a matter of twelve hours. Oddly enough, I don't need a gun to do that.

Democracy - another good, emotive word used time and again. Last time I voted, I didn't mark the ballot with a gun. Well, unless guns have ink in them...

Rights - boy is that a loaded word. Damn me back to the outhouse with a copy of Penthouse and a box of kleenex, but that's loaded. Everyone in the country has the right to take a fork and stick it in the electrical outlet nearest to them, but if government brought in legislation to ban that would you complain?

Emotive ideas from the other side of the argument.

The Dunblane Massacre

Hungerford

Letisha Shakespeare and Charlene Ellis

The first two of those involved legally owned weapons. The third assumedly had illegal weapons.

Something assumedly closer to home for you - a system in place that allowed a mentally ill person to get the weapons.

After debates on here and thinking about it, I don't have a problem with people who want guns for genuine hobbies, such as shooting, or for work (farmers and the like). I don't see that anyone else really needs one. I don't want a situation in the UK where people (not in an official capacity such as police) can wear guns regularly as they walk down the street.

There are two problems with wanting to allow a small number of interested people access to guns. The first is a system of limited regulation (such as that in the US), where guns are seen as a right instead of a privelege. The second is that I don't trust the current stage of evolution for humans to be suffiicient that it would be safe to allow people to have such weaponry. Can anyone here guarantee me the freedom of walking down the street knowing that there isn't a lunatic thinking that a lunar moth made of diamonds has told him to shoot the next overweight bloke he sees as long as the bloke has male pattern baldness and a beard?

If the system in place is insufficient to regulate the people, then the other option is to remove the weapons in question. I think the UK government has overreacted on some of the legislation mentioned above, but they were empowered to do so via the process of democracy, in short making it a democratic decision to bring those bans in.

I guess I was disappointed in two ways by this thread. The first was just posting a link and letting someone else do the arguing, and the second was the contents of the link - I've heard the pro-gun lobby talk about bleeding hearts of their opponents, but whose were the bleeding hearts in that little movie?

Rapscallion

[Greenday]

I'm still too split with stuff like this. On one hand, if we ban guns, people will still get guns regardless and then the only people armed that isn't part of the government is criminals, thus screwing over all law-abiding citizens. On the other hand, I still don't believe people really have a need of guns if everyone was freaking sane, but that just isn't going to happen. We'll always have dumbasses and morons who shoot each other and shoot innocent people. There is no happy medium. We are screwed regardless.

[AFPheonix]

There can be a happy medium if we bothered to try. But it's going to involve more cohesive regulation on who gets the weapons, how and where they can get the weapons, and frankly better regulation at the point source of weapons.
Legal owners aren't the problem, the occasional nutter that managers to get one, although great for headlines, aren't the problem either. It's the quiet current behind our backs that get guns into the hands of people who shouldn't have them and it flows into our inner cities and across our borders.

[Greenday]

There can be a happy medium when people stop shooting each other. When that happens, the debate on gun control will end.

[ditchdj]

Failure in the sense that banning ALL guns has NOT led to a reduction in violent crime. How is it "justice" when a law-abiding citizen can get serious prison time just for defending himself with a gun???? You call THAT "justice"??? I call it "sadism".

[Rapscallion]

Failure in the sense that banning ALL guns has NOT led to a reduction in violent crime. How is it "justice" when a law-abiding citizen can get serious prison time just for defending himself with a gun???? You call THAT "justice"??? I call it "sadism".

If the law changes in the way you fear, then ownership of those guns becomes an illegal act, and at that point the citizen who does not give up the guns in accordance with the laws of the country is no long law abiding. I call that logic.

What were the statistics in the UK for gun crime before and after the laws were brought in? Please cite your sources. I'd like to see a trend over several years.

Rapscallion

[ditchdj]

http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/f.../ukutopia.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1741336.stm

http://www.ncpa.org/iss/cri/2001/pd080801g.html

You really think the criminals are gonna voluntarily give up their guns every time the government issues a new edict on them???

[crazylegs]

http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/f.../ukutopia.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1741336.stm

http://www.ncpa.org/iss/cri/2001/pd080801g.html

None of those links gave a direct comparison from pre ban (1997) to current date, one gave a six month timescale, one merely mentioned Violence Against Person (wow, that's a hell of a broad term) and one only gave figures for three years.

[crazylegs]

One thing I forgot to mention,

If the gun control laws are failing to the complete extent that is being suggested why is it that the UK police service is still routinely unarmed?* They patrol with an incapaticant spray, quickcuffs and an baton; that's it, nothing more.




*With the notable exception of MOD police, who come under a different government ministry control to other forces and those officers within the normal constabularies who are Authorised Firearms Officers.

[Rapscallion]

The spray is a fairly recent addition, I might add.

Rapscallion

[Slytovhand]

I'm in total agreement with Raps and CL.

That video was merely emotive - as well as pretty uninformative, and totally crap!

Firstly - there are still a stack of legal gun owners in Australia. Heck, we won gold medals in shooting at the Olympics shortly the new regulations came in! Our people in the bush still have access to guns, and there are still cullings going on with highpowered rifles.

Has gun crime dropped significantly here? Probably not. Why, because it wasn't those law abiding citizens involved in said crimes.

BUT has crime significantly increased because the criminal element was aware that law-abiding citizens had a harder time to get guns... nope! Pretty much no effect at all.

Rights??? Ha! We never had the 'right' to a gun - it was, as Raps pointed out - a democratic bill passed donkey's back that all gun ownership needed to be via registration. Still is.

And yes, I can go and get myself a handgun (even magnums, glocks and other very powerful weapons), and go shooting. I am, though, 'restricted' to having to have a gun licence which means I have to apply for it (and have a reason for that application), be a member of a shooting club/range, and lastly, unless there are extentuating circumstances, I need to leave that gun at the gun club, or having it safely locked way in an approved safe.

So what's the damn problem???

And as Raps also mentioned... not once was there any mentioning at all of just why this law was passed - another mass shooting! And it wasn't a black market job either! Nor was it done by a 'criminal' in the normal sense of the word. Shootings in Australia hit the national paper headlines and tv news. I've been told that in various parts of the US, it doesn't even get reported as anything unusual, only that something happened to someone somewhere - on page 56.....

Yes, our coppers have guns on them - again, if it gets used, it gets reported across the country! (and the officer is required to go to counselling sessions thereafter!)

[crazylegs]

The spray is a fairly recent addition, I might add.

Rapscallion

1995, according to Wiki (seems about right actually).

[ditchdj]

Sooooooo.....

IF I get robbed at gunpoint, in my home or on the streets, I should just say, "Sir, you're violating gun control laws for just merely having that gun in your hand. You better lose that weapon really fast or else the police are gonna throw you in prison for carrying a gun" and the robber will instantly "see the error of his ways" and run away like a bat out of hell and I'll be perfectly fine. Because gun control laws really DO eliminate crime, right???

[crazylegs]

Sooooooo.....

IF I get robbed at gunpoint, in my home or on the streets, I should just say, "Sir, you're violating gun control laws for just merely having that gun in your hand. You better lose that weapon really fast or else the police are gonna throw you in prison for carrying a gun" and the robber will instantly "see the error of his ways" and run away like a bat out of hell and I'll be perfectly fine. Because gun control laws really DO eliminate crime, right???

Nice hypothetical statement.

All violent crime has fallen from a peak during 1995, falling reasonably steadily and has fallen by 48% British Crime Survey (pdf), theft from the person has fallen by 15%

Your argument is nothing more than scaremongering I'm afraid.

The BCS not only looks at reported (to the Police) crime but also incidents that are not reported, so it's a truer reflection of offences.