Gun control in UK - A Total Failure

[ditchdj]

You know, the anti-gun gang always has an answer for everything. The only problem is that their "Big Government/More Gun Control Laws" has NOT stopped gun violence. A guy dressed as Santa just murdered nine people before killing himself.

All in California, a "Gun Free, I mean, Unarmed Victims Zone"

A state with some of the toughest gun laws in the country, is a may issue CCW state, meaning that it's a political game of the old boy clubness to get a carry permit and has more Gun Free, I mean, Unarmed Victim Zones than anywhere else in the country.

When are people going to learn? You do not reason with these vile people. There are no social programs to save them. You do not make laws to stop these people. You must remove these people from society. If not before, immediately when it starts.

You simply arm those that would be victims or allow them the opportunity to be armed and when these vulgar people start, you simply remove them from society at the grassroots level.

Soon the gene pool thins of the scum and society is clean again. But no, it's the gun owners that are the problem.

[AFPheonix]

I have yet to see either Raps or Crazylegs posit that gun owners are the problem.
Clearly their argument has been that easy access to guns are, as well as cultural preferences to allowing every Tom, Dick and Harry to be armed.

If you want to argue, fine, but please, argue sensibly.

[ditchdj]

Oh so then when the anti-gun crowd runs out of answers then they start insulting the pro-gun group. THAT alone tells me that maybe you guys aren't as caring and "altruistic" as you sell yourselves to be. Maybe YOU can tell ME WHY these mass shootings STILL happen with all these gun-control laws??? Aside from the "fact" that we
"need" more gun-control laws???

[Rapscallion]

You know, the anti-gun gang always has an answer for everything.

That's because there is an answer to everything you've put forward.

The only problem is that their "Big Government/More Gun Control Laws" has NOT stopped gun violence. A guy dressed as Santa just murdered nine people before killing himself.

All in California, a "Gun Free, I mean, Unarmed Victims Zone"

It's still in the US, which has the second amendment allowing far easier access to guns. Was the gun held illegally?

A state with some of the toughest gun laws in the country,

I've not investigated California's laws too exactly, but I bet the laws are still laxer than those over here. It's also not the UK, which is what your initial argument was about.

is a may issue CCW state, meaning that it's a political game of the old boy clubness to get a carry permit and has more Gun Free, I mean, Unarmed Victim Zones than anywhere else in the country.

When are people going to learn? You do not reason with these vile people. There are no social programs to save them. You do not make laws to stop these people. You must remove these people from society. If not before, immediately when it starts.

What you're saying is that the penalty for mental illness is death by your peers?

You simply arm those that would be victims or allow them the opportunity to be armed and when these vulgar people start, you simply remove them from society at the grassroots level.

Right - vigilanteism. It is indeed what you're suggesting. I ... wouldn't really try suggesting that at the local police station. They'd take a dim view. Demarkation and all that.

As soon as someone mentally unstable starts shooting with a gun, it's too late. They've got the chance to down two or three people - if they've trained right - before the sane people respond. The figure of two or three is obviously taken from numerous hollywood movies, so it may be open to interpretation.

Soon the gene pool thins of the scum and society is clean again. But no, it's the gun owners that are the problem.

Some of them, certainly. Not every gun owner dressed as santa and shot up their ex and their ex's family, but one crazy one did.

By the way, I wouldn't go on about cleaning gene pools outside of here. I may disagree with you, but I don't dislike you.

Oh so then when the anti-gun crowd runs out of answers then they start insulting the pro-gun group. THAT alone tells me that maybe you guys aren't as caring and "altruistic" as you sell yourselves to be. Maybe YOU can tell ME WHY these mass shootings STILL happen with all these gun-control laws??? Aside from the "fact" that we
"need" more gun-control laws???

What I see are the pro-gun crowd not giving answers to the hard questions.

Your argument was that gun control in the UK has failed and you provided a link to a video produced by those interested in avoiding gun laws in the US as your proof. Crazylegs provided statistics, as has Slytovhand (apologies for forgetting you previously from this whinging pom), and I've seen you ignore point after point made.

Which mass shootings are you talking about? The santa one - was the gun held legally or not? Actually, does that matter? You may be best placed to tell me how difficult it would be for someone to drive over the border into a neighbouring state and buy a gun to take back. Besides, with weaponry in much wider circulation, gaining guns illegally is going to be easier for a nut with a death wish.

Rapscallion

[Slytovhand]

Oh so then when the anti-gun crowd runs out of answers then they start insulting the pro-gun group. THAT alone tells me that maybe you guys aren't as caring and "altruistic" as you sell yourselves to be. Maybe YOU can tell ME WHY these mass shootings STILL happen with all these gun-control laws??? Aside from the "fact" that we
"need" more gun-control laws???

Ummm... what's the 'insult'?

As Raps (and others on here) have pointed out, this thread is about the change to laws of gun ownership outside the US, and therefore has nothing to do with what happens in the US. 2 different kettles of fish... but we're now on 8 pages of trying to put all those fish into 1 kettle - and failing!

The thread you're after, Ditch, is the Gun Control thread. Now, I for one will happily debate with you on that one, but everything you post on this one is really going to go down the drain, because it is completely irrelevant!

Now, if there's another mass shooting in the UK or Australia by a civilian with a gun permit (or perhaps by a criminal) - then you've got yourself an argument (somewhere...).

I'll briefly reiterate what Raps just said... pro-gun don't give answers to the hard questions. They have one answer - give everyone a gun, and let the weeding begin! I threw that proposition on Gun Control thread, and happily, had a reply that said - Yes, lots of deaths and maimings and accidents in the short term, but better off long term. Is that what you really really want??? Are you willing to let people you love and care about be some of those unwilling victims during that period of turmoil?

Driveby shootings already happen in the US and innocent people die. Is that ok?? Cos that's going to be a consequence - as you've already indicated.

But - that's a derail... and has nothing to do with this particular thread.....

[Boozy]

As Raps (and others on here) have pointed out, this thread is about the change to laws of gun ownership outside the US, and therefore has nothing to do with what happens in the US. 2 different kettles of fish...

I agree. Comparing the US and the UK's attitudes towards guns is comparing apples and oranges. The two cultures are similar in many ways but also incredibly different in others.

Crime is a pretty complicated issue involving many factors. People who have spent a lifetime studying these things still disagree on even the most fundamental variables, and there are no easy answers. As such, I don't particularly understand how anyone can be vehemently anti- OR pro-gun control. I tend to favour strict gun control laws because I find the arguments in favour to be more convincing, but I try to keep an open mind. This isn't a black-and-white moral issue for me, so pragmatism should prevail. There may be some circumstances that call for a more heavily-armed populace. Frankly, I don't think the UK is in one of those circumstances. They have comparatively low gun crime rates, a stable democracy with low levels of corruption, and less exposure to North American-style gun culture. I suspect that strict gun control works for them.

[crazylegs]

You know, the anti-gun gang always has an answer for everything. The only problem is that their "Big Government/More Gun Control Laws" has NOT stopped gun violence. A guy dressed as Santa just murdered nine people before killing himself.

Yes he has, in one of the countries that has the highest ratios of firearms to people in the western world. Show me an example where it has happened within the UK since our legislation has come into place.

When are people going to learn? You do not reason with these vile people. There are no social programs to save them. You do not make laws to stop these people. You must remove these people from society. If not before, immediately when it starts.

You're suggesting that you lock people up for crimes they might commit, and *I'm* the one advocating the removal of civil libeties?

You simply arm those that would be victims or allow them the opportunity to be armed and when these vulgar people start, you simply remove them from society at the grassroots level.

Hmm, interesting. I prefer a criminal justice system myself, but hey each to their own.

Soon the gene pool thins of the scum and society is clean again. But no, it's the gun owners that are the problem.

Of course it's the owners at fault. A weapon could quite happily sit on a shelf for hundreds of years and no-one would get hurt. However once you hand that to a living blob that has feelings; jealousy, rage and anger then we have a problem.

Maybe YOU can tell ME WHY these mass shootings STILL happen with all these gun-control laws???

Really, where in the UK have we had a mass shooting, I'm a little confused, I though we were talking about UK law here...

[ditchdj]

I'm not gonna pump the board full of links so I'll just put this one up for now....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/ukguns

[Rapscallion]

Yes, some shocking tales indeed. Imagine how many more and worse it would be with laxer gun control.

How does it compare for rates of gun violence before and after gun control laws changed in the UK?

Rapscallion

[ditchdj]

Well has all those new gun control laws really stopped violent crime??? No. Just like here in the states. It's just a political ploy to feed the voters with feel-good lines. You know, I heard that there was once a senator that said, "They ONLY job that a senator has is to work for getting re-elected".

[Rapscallion]

Well has all those new gun control laws really stopped violent crime??? No.

Stopped? I'd like to see anything stop it. It makes it harder for the casual criminal to get weapons, by which I'd certainly say that the laws reduced the gun crime rate, making it safer for the citizens of the UK.

Look at the graph made from the figures provided. Statistical evidence. The gun crime rate has dropped greatly since the years 01/02.

Just like here in the states. It's just a political ploy to feed the voters with feel-good lines. You know, I heard that there was once a senator that said, "They ONLY job that a senator has is to work for getting re-elected".

I don't quite see the direct relevance, but politicians over here have a lesser chance of re-election if they take actions that can be shown to increase the number of citizens killed. Again, that's probably a difference of culture. Appealing to an audience that likes guns in general, such as the US, is likely to win more votes in that country. Your point being ...?

Ditchdj, you've been shown actual figures, even made into a pretty graph, that show that there's no real basis to your arguments. It's been explained to you time and again that you're talking about a different culture, one where we don't need guns to feel safe.

Why do you keep ignoring this? Why do you keep coming back with arguments that are aimed at tugging the heartstrings instead of dealing with the facts presented?

I'm curious.

Rapscallion

[Greenday]

What are the actual values of the x-axis?

[Rapscallion]

It's year by year - if you look at Crazyleg's post, it's a graph of that.

Rapscallion

[ditchdj]

The stats I found explain it differently.....



From.....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6960431.stm

Yeah, overall, it's down so far this year. BUT, after adopting strict gun control laws gun crime actually went up. Same as over here. That's one reason why many states are relaxing those laws on gun ownership.

[Slytovhand]

My first thought that comes to mind, with even bothering to research, is that that would be obvious that the stats would record higher 'crimes' involving guns. Since the laws have changed, anything gun related would now be considered a crime where previously, it wouldn't. I'd need to see a break-down of the actual 'crimes' commited (ie - not merely possession!) Ie, it may have been perfectly legal a few years ago for a gang member to have a shotgun on the premises of a clubhouse - now it's not... so now it's a 'crime'. Same also with buying and selling.

I also notice, further down that page, that imitation guns have been involved in more crimes - probably again as a result of the new laws making them more illegal.

Other possibilities include better policing leading to more arrests than previous.

A news website is probably not the best place for statistics, as they're already geared towards hype. Better with an actual statistics place.

But, as a last statement...

What all of this means is that we cannot draw any simple nationwide conclusions about gun crime. What we can say with certainty is that gun crime is a problem that remains closely focused in some cities that have witnessed some terrible deaths.

From the same news article!

Ditch... the video also talked about Australia introducing similar laws. Care to refute my evidence??