my despair over prop 2, 120, and potentially prop 8

[smileyeagle1021]

Sure they understand...they just don't care.

yes... that makes it even worse... and what's sad is that the people who are supporting them have NO IDEA that they could be next... I'm reminded of an old anecdote (paraphrased because I don't remember it exactly)
"First the Nazis went after the Jews and I did nothing for I was not a Jew, then they went after the Arabs, and the Blacks, and the Orientals and I did nothing for I was neither Arab, nor Black, nor Oriental, then they went after the homosexuals and I did nothing for I was not a homosexual... then they came after me... and there was no one to help me for everyone who could was already gone."

[daleduke17]

sounds a bit like Utah... 4 counties have something like 80-85% of the states population, in order of size, Salt Lake, Utah, Weber, and Davis... Oh and Salt Lake makes up over half the population of that 4 county area, so really what Salt Lake wants Salt Lake gets.

Here's the population of the top 10 counties in Illinois:

- Cook (Chicago)
- DuPage (Chicago area)
- Lake (Chicago area)
- Will (Chicago area)
- Kane (Chicago area)
- Winnebago (Rockford - people leaving Chicago)
- McHenry (far, far north Chicago suburbs)
- Madison (Metro-East/St. Louis
- St. Clair (Metro-East/St. Louis)
- Sangamon (Central Illinois - State Capitol)

All of them voted Democrat this time. Even the county I live in went Blue this time around and McLean is a HUGE "R" normally.

[Yfandes]

I am so embarrassed! I live in Long Beach CA, and I am so ashamed it was voted that my neighbors, my friends, do not have the same rights that I do!! That our state voted to disallow equality! Uuuuuugh! How is this even constitutional?

[smileyeagle1021]

Seawolfe, I think I have some quotes your statesmen should hear

Why do we have to recycle the old conflicts so many times: first we fight about slavery, then segregation, then gender, and now sexual orientation, while gender identity is in the wings waiting? Why can't people look at the phrase 'liberty and justice for all' and simply accept that 'all' means 'all.' - anon

The Bible contains six admonishments to homosexuals and 362 admonishments to heterosexuals. That doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals. It's just that they need more supervision.- Lynn Lavner

and the sadest of them all

Leonard Matlovich: He served for 12 years in the US Air Force, received exemplary ratings, won a Bronze Star and Purple Heart. After revealing his homosexual orientation, he was dishonorably discharged. His tombstone reads: "Here lies a man who was given a medal for killing two men, and a dishonorable discharge for loving one."

[Kusanagi]

I'm legitimately spurpised Proposition 8 passed here in California.

The only non-religious arguement I have heard regarding it would be solved by a simple compromise between Church and State, giving churches the right to refuse to perform the ceremony or allow the wedding to take place on church grounds, but that opens a whole new set of problems up.

The big concern now is what's going to happen to the 18,000+ couples that got married in the last few months. There are already groups lobbying that these marriages should be rendered null and void.

I'm Christian, I'm more conservative than liberal, but this pisses me off.

[smileyeagle1021]

I'm Christian, I'm more conservative than liberal, but this pisses me off.

this is what confuses me... even the "more conservative than liberal christians" are saying they are surprised it passed.

I personally think that what happened in California is what people feared would happen on the national scale with Mr Obama (and I"ll preface this by saying that I doubt that Kusanagi was or is one of these people)... pundits were saying that in public no one would admit to not wanting to vote for someone who is black because they are black, but in the privacy of the voting booth the old racism would creep in... same thing happened in California, no one wanted to publicly admit to being a homophobe or a bigot, but in the privacy of that booth they did not have to fear the rightful shame of their choice.

[Kusanagi]

Given the fact that at least where I live EVERY house had a sign with YES ON 8 and people who were campaigning against it got egged and insulted, no, I doubt people had a problem hiding their bigotry at all.

For some reason people think that because I'm straight that I'm pro Prop 8 or anti-gay, which is not the case at all.

Besides, it's not like if I get married in the future that the relationship between myself and my wife will be cheapened by a gay couple who gets married.

[anriana]

I'm legitimately spurpised Proposition 8 passed here in California.

I've seen a few of the ads online and they were all of the "protect the children!" variety. While I think that is completely ridiculous, I can see how it would resonate with people. http://www.protectmarriage.com/ has a few.

Just reading their victory posts makes me so angry. "Proposition 8 has always been about restoring the traditional definition of marriage. It doesn’t discriminate or take rights away from anyone." my ass. What about the marriages it JUST took away?

The only non-religious arguement I have heard regarding it would be solved by a simple compromise between Church and State, giving churches the right to refuse to perform the ceremony or allow the wedding to take place on church grounds, but that opens a whole new set of problems up.

I thought that churches, as private properties, already had the right to refuse wedding ceremonies? I know there are many around here who will only allow ceremonies for members of the denomination, or who require couples to complete classes before being allowed to use the sanctuary.

And yes, my earlier comment about the Arkansas prop was complete sarcasm.

[Kusanagi]

I thought that churches, as private properties, already had the right to refuse wedding ceremonies? I know there are many around here who will only allow ceremonies for members of the denomination, or who require couples to complete classes before being allowed to use the sanctuary.

It's a very slippery slope. Due to the anti-hate laws already on the book, gays that wanted to get married in a Mormon church or cathedral for example would be able to claim descrimination against them if the church did not allow the ceremony to happen there.

A weak arguement for sure, as I can't imagine any sane person who was gay wanting to get married in a congregation hostile to them, but as I've learned time and time again from CS, there are idiots who will rock the boat simply for the sake of doing so.

The churches don't really get any say in the matter if the government tells them to do so due to their tax exempt status.

[ElMarko]

I'm legitimately spurpised Proposition 8 passed here in California.

As am I. This isn't the California I grew up in. I'd expect this in Arkansas or any other of the confederate states. I'm not even gay, nor do I hang out with any gay people and I thought this was heinous.

I'm used to California being the leading state in good things.

Most of California's population increase has been from immigration. I wonder how much of that is from hillbilly states.

As far as I'm concerned Christian organizations are nothing more than hate groups.

[AdminAssistant]

I'd expect this in Arkansas or any other of the confederate states.

Um, Arkansas hasn't been a Confederate state since 1865. Southern, yes. Conservative, yes. Not Confederate.

[anriana]

It's a very slippery slope. Due to the anti-hate laws already on the book, gays that wanted to get married in a Mormon church or cathedral for example would be able to claim descrimination against them if the church did not allow the ceremony to happen there.

I thought Mormons kicked out anyone who identified as queer?

[smileyeagle1021]

I thought Mormons kicked out anyone who identified as queer?

yes... they do excommunicate gay members (hence my comment about how if I came out of the closet I'd face excommunication and at least then I wouldn't have to worry about being persecuted for being a member of a heretical church).

[Rapscallion]

As far as I'm concerned Christian organizations are nothing more than hate groups.

The problem here isn't christianity - it's human nature. We're tribal. Give us someone we can all hate, we band together. It's a fairly common method of mass control. Hitler used the Jews, gays, and Romanies. The Inquisition used anyone who didn't say exactly the right things and Jews, and probably gays as well. Many Arab nations are happy to demonise Jews and gays (bit of a theme developing - if I were a gay Jew, I'd be bricking it right now). Marx created his own divisions based on wealth - bourgouise and ... the other one for the poorer folk.

Just makes people do what you tell them. It's a disturbingly effective technique.

Rapscallion

[smileyeagle1021]

The problem here isn't christianity - it's human nature. We're tribal. Give us someone we can all hate, we band together. It's a fairly common method of mass control. Hitler used the Jews, gays, and Romanies. The Inquisition used anyone who didn't say exactly the right things and Jews, and probably gays as well. Many Arab nations are happy to demonise Jews and gays (bit of a theme developing - if I were a gay Jew, I'd be bricking it right now). Marx created his own divisions based on wealth - bourgouise and ... the other one for the poorer folk.

Just makes people do what you tell them. It's a disturbingly effective technique.

Rapscallion

Raps, I am so forwarding your post to one of my friends who is a gay Jew... he'd get a kick out of it for some reason.

And yes, I'll agree with you, extremely disturbing how effective it is... one would hope that in 2008 it would be less effective rather than more.