Mos Def Demonstrates Guantanamo Force Feeding

[Duelist925]

http://sourcefednews.com/mos-def-par...demonstration/

Warning: It will likely be disturbing to many, so view at your own risk.

It is...I find this disturbing. It's one thing to know that something happens, and the generics of it--its another entirely to see it happening, and how it affects someone.

Thoughts on this?

[Gravekeeper]

I have no idea what to do with that Hell hole and find everyone complacent in its continued operation ( Congress ) to be inhumanely callous at best, evil at worst. The fact Bush and Co walked away scott free from it still disgusts me.

Its not like the Obama administration hasn't tried to close that shit hole either. But congress wants no part of it.

Tortured and held indefinitely without trial. Thats a level of despair thats hard for anyone to comprehend. Then they wonder why the prisoners are trying to kill themselves left, right and center. Never mind that half of them were captured under dubious circumstances.

[Panacea]

It is...I find this disturbing. It's one thing to know that something happens, and the generics of it--its another entirely to see it happening, and how it affects someone.

Thoughts on this?

I would remind everyone of something. This video was made with the express purpose of eliciting a specific reaction . . . disgust . . . from the audience. Mr. Bey succeeded in doing that. However, that does not mean this video is an accurate representation of what really happens at Gitmo.

That being said, there is some truth to the video. If you have someone in custody who needs a medical procedure, such as the insertion of a feeding tube, who is refusing to cooperate and has to be physically restrained, they would be in shackles and they would be physically restrained in a manner similar to what was used on Mr. Bey.

Mr. Bey's physical reaction to the tube insertion is not uncommon, though every patient is different. It is more unpleasant for those who resist the procedure. For patients who cooperate the procedure, while unpleasant, goes quickly and is not painful.

I have performed this same procedure hundreds of times on patients who were both willing and unwilling.

On a willing patient, it takes about 10 minutes from start to finish, and most of that is just getting set up.

It can take up to an hour on an unwilling patient in otherwise good health. I dispute the "typically 2 hours" figure. I don't believe it takes that long on average. They may have had some inmates particularly resistant, but they would be outliers. Remember, they don't order a feeding tube as soon as the inmate goes on a hunger strike. They order the feeding tube (actually the doctor orders it, not the prison staff) when the inmate's starvation brings him to a point where his life is in jeopardy. He's lost a lot of weight and is usually pretty weak at that point. Most would not have the strength to resist the way Bey did.

Part of that 2 hours is probably taken up by obtaining and verifying the chest xray that's usually required before you begin a tube feeding, to make sure the tube is not in the inmate's stomach. He wouldn't have much in the way of stomach contents to verify placement, so you could get it in the airway and not know it.

There are inexpensive ways to make the procedure less painful, and I always use them when available. There is an analgesic throat spray (tastes like banana) that numbs the throat. There is a lidocaine gel that you can use to lubricate the tube that numbs the nose and the nasopharanx.

I always offer the patient a straw to sip ice water as I insert the tube; they swallow it right down. Of course, if the patient resists that doesn't help. What Mr. Bey hasn't proven is that every inmate resists. Many may not resist, having made their point by the time the tube becomes necessary. A lot of prisoners who go on hunger strikes really don't want to die, and know authorities will interene, giving them a way to seize the moral high ground (remember after a few days hunger goes away).

What bothers me about this video is I didn't see easy access to suction; that presents a risk to Mr. Bey had he vomited during the procedure, which sometimes happens when the tube accidentally stimulates the gag reflex.

In short, while I believe Mr. Bey really was very uncomfortable, that didn't matter as much as getting viewers worked up. But the whole thing is smoke and mirrors and there is a lot he's not telling you in this video. It is propaganda.

Tortured and held indefinitely without trial. Thats a level of despair thats hard for anyone to comprehend. Then they wonder why the prisoners are trying to kill themselves left, right and center. Never mind that half of them were captured under dubious circumstances.

I don't condone what our government has done in relation to Gitmo. Mr Bey's video is propaganda, but that doesn't mean I think we're doing the right thing in how we treat those prisoners, or who we arrested and why.

[Nekojin]

I don't condone what our government has done in relation to Gitmo. Mr Bey's video is propaganda, but that doesn't mean I think we're doing the right thing in how we treat those prisoners, or who we arrested and why.

That's pretty much been my take on the matter.

The video is "ends justify the means" propaganda. And while I don't think that Mr. Bey was completely faking it, I also don't believe that those were his natural reactions - I think he was hamming it up for the camera, playing up discomfort into seemingly horrifying pain.

[siead_lietrathua]

I would remind everyone of something...(and rest)

i was waiting to hear your thoughts on this one. a few nurses had commented the same on the video as you did here, that it's never usually painful unless someone is REALLY resisting, and that it doesn't take as long as they claim.

while i do agree that gitmo is a terrible place, this was not the best example they could have used for the video. i'm sure there are lots of other things they could have chosen to demonstrate that would have went over better, like what would inspire them to go on a hunger strike long enough to require medical assistance.

[Panacea]

You have to remember, there are people in this country who are sympathetic to al-Queda and its aims because of long standing grudges (some justified) with our government.

He set out to make a point, and he made it. Unfortunately, many people were probably taken in by the video since Bey actually took a feeding tube a fair way up his nose.

[kamn]

<snip>Part of that 2 hours is probably taken up by obtaining and verifying the chest xray that's usually required before you begin a tube feeding, to make sure the tube is not in the inmate's stomach. He wouldn't have much in the way of stomach contents to verify placement, so you could get it in the airway and not know it.<snip>

What about hearing for escaping air inside the stomach, while you empty a plunger filled with air in the opposite end of the feeding tube? Typically, the same plunger you would use for feeding, if you're having something that isn't completely liquid, such as "liquified" meat?
The sound is quite distinct, and hard to miss. Then again, I only did this on willing patients and dummies, but that's what we were taught as an inexpensive and fast way to verify location, as opposed to xrays...

Obviously, you have more experience, and know what you're doing, just pointing out something I was taught.

[Fire_on_High]

Someone who goes as far as making a video with the intent to influence ppl's feelings on the matter would never exaggerate, right?

You all forget one point far too easily. Those guys in Gitmo? They. Are. The. ENEMY.

They got themselves where they are with their actions and choices, and if they'd behave they'd be eating off a meal tray instead of having a tube stuffed in em.

[Panacea]

What about hearing for escaping air inside the stomach, while you empty a plunger filled with air in the opposite end of the feeding tube? Typically, the same plunger you would use for feeding, if you're having something that isn't completely liquid, such as "liquified" meat?
The sound is quite distinct, and hard to miss. Then again, I only did this on willing patients and dummies, but that's what we were taught as an inexpensive and fast way to verify location, as opposed to xrays...

Obviously, you have more experience, and know what you're doing, just pointing out something I was taught.

I have no doubt the nurses who insert the tubes on these patients use a large syringe to listen for placement with a stethescope (basically like kamn said, you force air into the tube while you listen over the stomach with a stethescope; it makes a very distinctive sound). However, the standard of care for an NGT if it is to be used for a tube feeding is to check placement via x ray.

If I were putting down a tube to connect it to suction, you don't have to bother with an xray, which would provide no benefit but some risk by exposing them to radiation.

But you don't want to deal with aspiration pneumonia from tube feeding, much less ARDS.

Someone who goes as far as making a video with the intent to influence ppl's feelings on the matter would never exaggerate, right?

You all forget one point far too easily. Those guys in Gitmo? They. Are. The. ENEMY.

They got themselves where they are with their actions and choices, and if they'd behave they'd be eating off a meal tray instead of having a tube stuffed in em.

We are holding them for the purpose of criminal trials. There is still a presumption of innocence in our legal system even with the military tribunals.

And if we are going to hold the moral high ground and tell other people how to act, we damn well ought to live up to our own rules.

[Nekojin]

You all forget one point far too easily. Those guys in Gitmo? They. Are. The. ENEMY.

They got themselves where they are with their actions and choices, and if they'd behave they'd be eating off a meal tray instead of having a tube stuffed in em.

Whose enemy? Many of the people in Guantanamo haven't even been charged with a crime, much less convicted. Even a kangaroo court would be better than how they're being treated.

[fireheart17]

I have no doubt the nurses who insert the tubes on these patients use a large syringe to listen for placement with a stethescope (basically like kamn said, you force air into the tube while you listen over the stomach with a stethescope; it makes a very distinctive sound). However, the standard of care for an NGT if it is to be used for a tube feeding is to check placement via x ray.

If I were putting down a tube to connect it to suction, you don't have to bother with an xray, which would provide no benefit but some risk by exposing them to radiation.

But you don't want to deal with aspiration pneumonia from tube feeding, much less ARDS.

IANAMP, but would a prison even HAVE an X-ray machine for medical purposes?

Not-so-medical purposes sure, but not so sure about the medical ones.

[Andara Bledin]

If it's an American prison, it's likely a requirement that they have one or they have access to one.

Just because someone is a prisoner that doesn't mean they aren't entitled to proper medical care.

[Panacea]

IANAMP, but would a prison even HAVE an X-ray machine for medical purposes?

Not-so-medical purposes sure, but not so sure about the medical ones.

It depends on the size of the facility. County jails usually contract x-rays out, and would be more likely to hospitalize a prisoner in this instance (this came up once at the county jail where I worked) for that kind of treatment since it requires careful monitoring.

Actual prisons usually have their own in house hospitals, or infirmaries, that are fully staffed and equipped. It's easier and safer to treat most problems in house than send the inmate to the hospital. In that case, they will often have an x ray machine one the property (the state prison where I worked did; a contract tech would come in to do the films as required and develop the on site for the doctors).

Camp X Ray is no longer used. There is a fully equipped, modern prison on the grounds at Guantanamo Bay now (remember, we've had a naval base there for decades that still serves other vital security interests in the Caribbean).

If it's an American prison, it's likely a requirement that they have one or they have access to one.

Just because someone is a prisoner that doesn't mean they aren't entitled to proper medical care.

Yes, exactly. The relevant case law comes from Estelle v Getty, where the SCOTUS ruled that withholding medical care, or providing substandard or inadequate care amounted to cruel and unusual punishment.

[Hyena Dandy]

There was a case called Estelle v Getty?

I shouldn't laugh, but I am...

Anyway, yeah, there should always be good medical care. Especially ina place where we are keeping people who are important to keep.

[fireheart17]

It depends on the size of the facility. County jails usually contract x-rays out, and would be more likely to hospitalize a prisoner in this instance (this came up once at the county jail where I worked) for that kind of treatment since it requires careful monitoring.

Actual prisons usually have their own in house hospitals, or infirmaries, that are fully staffed and equipped. It's easier and safer to treat most problems in house than send the inmate to the hospital. In that case, they will often have an x ray machine one the property (the state prison where I worked did; a contract tech would come in to do the films as required and develop the on site for the doctors).

Camp X Ray is no longer used. There is a fully equipped, modern prison on the grounds at Guantanamo Bay now (remember, we've had a naval base there for decades that still serves other vital security interests in the Caribbean).

Oops, this is where I was getting at in terms of the X-Ray question. Apologies to Andara.

Most issues at the prisons down here are handled in-house, with the more major ones involving the inmates visiting hospitals as needed. For things like imaging and whatnot, a number of medical imaging providers run clinics outside of hospitals, so the public can access them. I imagine the prisoners access them in this way as well (obviously heavily guarded!)

Hence why I asked about the X-Ray machines IN the prison.