Republicans: crybabies or patriots?

[Rapscallion]

There are probably some nuances that I don't appreciate on this, and I tend to a more liberal bias, so my gut instinct is that the republicans are basically the bad guys in all of this healthcare versus budget malarkey.

What don't I know?

From my perspective, after failing to get a law prevented from passing, then failing on ... forty was it? ... occasions to get it overturned, the republicans have taken the chance to stop the budget from being passed to try and overturn it.

Thoughts?

Rapscallion

[Daskinor]

My vote would be crybabies. But its deeper then that, much of the republican gains since 2010 have been in the form of the extreme right.

And that right is all about governing with conservative memes. The far right house members play into it. They know the rest of the country is hatting them, but they don't care. The people who voted them in are eating this up. Of course the more moderate Republicans are also afraid of being primared so they let the far right dictate policy.


So in the end I think this is more of a show, then they actually believing they are putting up the good fight.

[lordlundar]

I think the best definition of the current Republican party is this:

They are sacrificing Regan policies in the name of Regan policies.

What do I mean by this? Well, Regan's push that got him the incredible landslide victory in the early 80's was a policy of "mass spending and no new taxes". This was supplemented with a push for Free Market led economy, a strong anti-communist stance (though not nearly has heavy handed as Joseph McCarthy) and his natural charisma from being an actor. This policy led the Republicans to take nearly every state and rapid shift in the American Culture. This is what the Republican party wants to recreate and why he's so idolized in the party.

The problem is that it was all on the surface. The "mass spending and no new taxes" only lasted a year, the so called "Free Market" was actually very heavily regulated (a lot of old school warnings about food are no longer applicable as a result of this) to prevent harming the country, Regan was more open and diplomatic with the Soviets during his term (the Iran-Contra incident notwithstanding) and laid the groundwork for Clinton's efforts later, and his charisma was less a factor to winning over democrats than his more moderate stance towards them. It was because Regan was a relatively moderate President that led to his success, not the hard-right stance of his election campaign.

It's the idealism of Regan's election campaign that the Republican Party wants to create in reality but anyone with an objective eye will tell you it will run the country into the ground. It's been said that Regan could not get elected into the party that idolizes him and I agree. The Republican Party is so obsessed with making Regan's election promises a reality that they can't see how bad it is and refuse to work with anyone that doesn't share their vision.

[Andara Bledin]

There are no real nuances to this situation.

The House Republicans are the bad guys.

It's worth noting that a large percentage of the House Republicans are first termers who have never held a public office and don't actually have the first clue what they're doing other than trying their damnedest to prevent the "other side" from making anything happen, no matter how much it harms their own interests.

This has got to be the starkest example of cutting off one's nose to spite one's face ever enacted in the public sphere. Not only are they harming their constituents and themselves by fighting the ACA, but they're also causing a huge rift in the party that might ultimately see those on the far, far right given the boot outright.

One bit of speculation in another forum was that Boehner was allowing the shutdown to happen so that they could sooner reach that point and he could rid himself of the more self-destructive members of his own party, since their zealotry means that they can't actually be controlled.

[s_stabeler]

what's really scary is they have another opportunity to try to screw everybody over- if the debt ceiling isn't raised by October 17th, then the US will default on it's debts. But yeah, they are being crybabies. you never cut off supply ( bills to allow the government to raise money) without an extremely good reason- you are more or less saying "We would rather see the government collapse than see you continue in power any longer"- and the republicans are saying that the ACA is that bad.

[mikoyan29]

Honestly, I'm not sure what to think anymore. I think it sucks that it has come to this but I can't really blame Obama for this one. He's negotiated with them in good faith in the past only to have the extreme right throw it back in his face. I honestly thought that they would be more willing to work with him since they failed in thier original goal of making sure that he was a one termer. I'm not sure where I read it but it seems kind of valid....it's funny for a group of people that seemingly hate Europe so much, they are working hard to make sure we get a European like government that is factionalized.

I don't see this lasting long though as their benefactors start seeing the bottom line getting hurt.

[s_stabeler]

Mikoyan, the amusing thing is, you are already more factionalized thasn europe- probably because there are easier ways to oust the Government (a Vote of No Confidence, or a vote to dissolve parliament- albeit the second one takes a 2/3 majority)

[Andara Bledin]

The Senate has sent a "clean" Continuing Resolution to the House repeatedly, only to have the house leader refuse to let it get to a vote. Then the House adds a variety of suspect demands, most notably the defunding of the ACA for another year, and sends it to the Senate.

At which point, the Senate strips it down to a clean CR again and sends it back.

This is a pissing match by the House Republicans over the ACA, a battle they've already lost but are determined to fight over and over again to everybody's detriment.

[smileyeagle1021]

This is all politics... the Republicans are hoping that come 2014 people will believe it is the Democrats' fault that the shutdown happened and vote for Republicans instead... somehow I don't think that is going to be the case though. Then again, Americans aren't known for being the best educated electorate on the planet.

[s_stabeler]

even more irritating is the Republican definition of compromise- you give ground to us, then next time we have a chance, we'll demand even further concessions. ( f you don't think they'll demand more concessions over the Debt Ceiling on October 17th, then I've got a bridge to sell you. For that matter, they'll probably pull this crap again next year, when the issue of a |Budget comes around again.

[Andara Bledin]

They're not trying to pass a full budget, so this will come up again in three months, I believe.

[s_stabeler]

which makes it even worse, because you just know this'll come up again. Not least, because nothing can be done about the inherent problem: the House Republicans are dominated by people who have a mindset of "stop Obama, no matter the cost, no matter how"- the problem can only be resolved by kicking the Representatives in question out.

[Greenday]

I get the whole "We can't keep spending without making up the money somewhere" attitude. I really do. It doesn't make sense to go more and more into debt every year by the trillions. If a single human being followed that policy, we'd think they are crazy. But because it's the government, it's okay?

The GOP needs to pick their battles though and they can't win when it comes to this health care issue.

[s_stabeler]

Oh, I don't deny that the federal deficit needs eliminating, but the issue is primarily one of how, and how fast. The republicans more or less are demanding that it come from cuts alone ( No new taxes! No tax rises!) and particularly from cuts to benefits The Democrats want the money to come from a combination of tax rises and spending cuts, preferably by cutting waste. ( indeed, dealing with tax evasion would help. The Republicans bleat about how people would emigrate to escape the tax burden- good. If you remain a US citizen, you are taxed on your worldwide income. In other words, they'd leave for abroad, only to find a tax bill waiting for them. ( not to mention, if it's determined you gave up citizenship to escape tax, you still have to pay tax for 10 years!)

[D_Yeti_Esquire]

It's worse than you think. The Republican majority thinks this is a bad idea but it's idealogue base won't let them move. The majority is having to conform what they're saying so the Republican party doesn't look... well as disorganized as it is.

The problem is, this is a state level, federal government issue. Way back when we had this discussion on gerrymandering in Texas? Well this is the result. The vocal minority blocking this can't be removed and scores points for doing it. The Federal government can't pass laws outlawing Gerrymandering because state's rights and all that fun stuff. When the next elections come up, the Republicans won't be swept out in the short term although long term they may be doing irreperable harm. Ideally, even though much like this many Republicans would score points for this, there would be so many contested districts that the right would be hammered to the point the Democrats posessed a supermajority in the next election. Unfortunately that check doesn't exist.

So the result is this: a faction in the government that can and will burn it down in order to get concessions because they win either way. Either it burns down and they can claim the government doesn't function placating their base. Or they get concessions and do the same thing.

The ONLY thing that fixes this is dealing with the real issue which isn't Obamacare, Republicans, or Democrats. It's the fact that the electoral system has been doctored to the point that moderates are disenfranchised by the voting precincts. And we can bitch about the VRA, but that is only one aspect of voter suppression that has been allowed recently. Moderates can't swing elections despite being above 60% of the population. So yea, Republicans bad but that doesn't fix anything.