Republicans: crybabies or patriots?

[Aethian]

And... more drama in DC. Reports are that a woman rammed the gates of the White House with her car, was chased over a dozen blocks, and shots were fired. At least one officer was injured at that time, and the woman is either dead or in custody. I'm hoping she's in custody because I really want to hear what the hell was going through her head.

She's in custody, originally she rammed a street barrier that was the outside of the treasury building. She was finally boxed in by police outside the senates entrance of the capital. This is where she first tried to flee by running into officers who opened fired on her car, she then ran. Officers went in pursuit and checked out her car where they removed her 1-3 year old child.

The officer was only minorily wounded and was released.

[Gravekeeper]

She's in custody, originally she rammed a street barrier that was the outside of the treasury building. She was finally boxed in by police outside the senates entrance of the capital. This is where she first tried to flee by running into officers who opened fired on her car, she then ran. Officers went in pursuit and checked out her car where they removed her 1-3 year old child.

The officer was only minorily wounded and was released.

She's dead, actually.

First she pulled into a Secret Service security check point and when they confronted her, she turned around, struck a barrier and backed over an SS agent. Then she fled and crashed into security barrier outside of the treasury building. They boxed her in and ordered her out of the car. She backed into police cruisers then tried to run over the officers in front of her, striking another officer, at which point they opened fire.

She then fled again and again tried to ram through another security barrier. The police boxed her in, she tried to get out again and this time was fatally shot.

Her family is refusing to speak with police or answer any questions as to WTF happened too. So they're getting a search warrant for her apartment.

[D_Yeti_Esquire]

lots of republicans are saying it's not big deal and talking about how everyone's lives aren't falling apart, aren't they basically then arguing that they aren't needed?

Pretty much. Of course it's early and no one is having to report hundreds of thousands of government employee mortgages going into default or foreclosure yet. It hasn't gone on long enough for the FEMA funding programs to get choked up. Essentially, the whole thing is just way to early for people to feel it yet.

Unless you were planning on going to a national park in the last two days or needed a passport, you probably don't care. This little bit of theater I don't care about. But the debt ceiling? If the US unhinges the T-bill and bond markets or causes the markets to stampede away from the dollar, not only is mainstreet going to get torched, I doubt anyone is going to enjoy their election to the government for that period. Your entire tenure (you'll probably only get one when you get blamed for it) will be cleaning up someone else's mess.

[Racket_Man]

. When all of the programs they point at to cut to save money amount to minuscule portions of the federal budget that wouldn't solve anything. Save making the people that rely on them suffer.

.

Anyone remember during the 2012 Presidential campaign debate when Mitt Romey (I think) said something to the effect of "Quit giving Big Bird government welfare" Meaning he wanted to cut all government funding for PBS (that nasty liberal media channel note sarcasm) that takes all of .000000000000000001% of the Federal outlays

[Panacea]

so what happens here, is there a time limit or what, if they don't agree what happens?

There's no time limit written in the Constitution. They can keep this game up indefinitely, or until hell freezes over. Last time, it lasted 21 days.

However, this time around we have the debt ceiling fight coming up. If we don't raise the debt ceiling, the Treasury can't sell any more bonds to pay our debts. That will be a major disaster; the value of our bonds could drop like a rock. No one wants to buy bonds from a dead beat. For all the GOP talks about personal responsibility, they pick this stupid fight for no damn good reason, just because it's so important to the economy, to try and pressure Obama.

Last time, it worked. He caved, and we got the sequester, which is still ongoing with automatic cuts. I don't know what will happen this time.

. (every single default has caused decades-long economic hardship. Russia only recovered due to oil wealth, Argentina has never fully recovered)

I am very frightened of this. It could really hurt us for years to come. What the FUCK is wrong with the damn GOP. They could break the logjam if they'd just stand up to the damn Tea Party.

And what happens if the foreign financial institution is based in a country with strong privacy laws that make it a criminal offense to obey the U.S. demand for reporting on assets? If they don't report, they're breaking U.S. law, but if they do report, they're breaking their home country's law.

Most of these institutions are global. If they don't roll over, they can't do business in the US, and that's a big part of their income. Most countries that had those laws have changed them and cooperate with us now (not saying it's right).

The problem is that Obamacare is a law. Its as much a law as is possible. It went through the entire progress legitimately,

A GOP complaint is Harry Reid, in the Senate, used a procedural trick to bring Obamacare to a vote in the Senate, because he did not have a filibuster proof majority. So they don't see the law as legitimate. But it is the only way it would have passed. The filibuster rules are completely fucked up and make it too easy for some pissy bastard to gum up the works for no good reason, just cuz he says so (no Mr Smith goes to Washington here)

was challenged as unconstitutional and was ruled constitutional by the Supreme Court.

Chief Roberts was the deciding vote on thin ice. He calls the fine for not having health insurance a tax, when Congress and Obama said specifically it was a fine. It was a word game he played because he realized the law was a good one, and good for the country. But to the Tea Party, that is just more evidence that the law is NOT legitimate. Now, I know the law is sound constitutionally, and Roberts did the county a disservice by not going with the government's reason why it is (regulation of interstate commerce) . . . or maybe he didn't since that reason has been over used.

Thats it, its a law, end of story. So seeing this grand standing fuck monkeys get up there one after another and rant about how its an unconstitutional assault on American freedom while pulling out prob Constitutions from inside their jacket ....

It is the law of the land, and normally the GOP would not have put up this kind of fight. They have fought to weaken Social Security and Medicare for decades, but the programs are so popular with Americans, it's hard for them to do much without pissing off their constituents. They fear Obamacare will be equally popular (and while it is unpopular now, once people understand what it really does it will become as equally popular as SS and Medicare), and they'll never get rid of it after that.

Its either malicious, orchestrated evil or complete cognitive dissonance or somewhere inbetween. With various flavours of utter hypocrisy running through it as the GOP is incapable of keeping its story straight for more than a month.

I hate to categorize the GOP as evil. They do make good points about the debt and the deficit, and we can't sustain unlimited levels of spending for ever. Cognative dissonace, however, fits the bill.

The GOP is basically Taliban Light at this point.

The GOP, and the Tea Party especially, is doing more damage to this country than the Taliban ever could (and they weren't even trying, it was al-Queda that was responsible for 9/11).

Hate to break it to you, but that is merely a matter of timing at this point. The US Federal Government is addicted to spending (not that that is particularly unusual for governments...), and it has almost reached the point where all the federal level revenue from tax won't cover the interest on the debt and spending already committed (pensions and so forth).

The Federal government has increased it's debt by 600% since 1990. As GDP has only increased by 75% in that time, that's a bubble just waiting to burst. Repeatedly increasing the debt ceiling is doing nothing more than increasing the pain that will occur.

Well, here's the thing. We have had debt levels like this before, and the world didn't come to an end. We can manage the debt and the deficit if we're willing to compromise and work out deals. The Bowles Simpson plan was a good one; everyone shared the pain equally. But no one is willing to make those hard calls, and the finger pointing goes on and on.

And... more drama in DC.

Reports are that a woman rammed the gates of the White House with her car, was chased over a dozen blocks, and shots were fired. At least one officer was injured at that time, and the woman is either dead or in custody.

I'm hoping she's in custody because I really want to hear what the hell was going through her head.

She's dead. We may never know. I wonder if it wasn't suicide by cop.

Gk did make the distinction by calling them Taliban "Light". As I recall the actual Taliban slaughtered entire villages for having the wrong version of faith.

The GOP hasn't slaughtered anyone. Which is about the only positive thing I can say about the GOP.

They're slaughtering the economy. It's a slow bleed right now. It will be a hemorrhage if the debt ceiling isn't fixed.

[mikoyan29]

They make good points about the debt but they are just about clueless as the Democrats when it comes to fixing the debt. A major contributor to the debt is the fact that people at the higher end of the income spectrum are not being taxed at the same rate as everyone else (unless they are getting paid in the form of paychecks...but that is not usually typical). And since more of the money as been going to that end....

I would be fine with tax reform, but generally tax reform means that the people at the top pay even less and the rest get stuck with the bill.

Of course, running the government by continuing resolutions doesn't help the cause either as departments can't do any sort of long term planning. It is starting to hurt the FAA's efforts to modernize our Air Traffic grid. I'm sure it is hurting in other places as well. But what the hell, they might as well blame Obama when planes start falling out of the sky.

I don't get the fight over the debt ceiling to be honest. Mainly because that is money that has already been spent. in years past, the debt cieling was a non-issue and didn't require a vote...but of course that changed with Mr. Gingrich and crew. And now that the current crew likes to start fights, its becoming even more of an issue.

[s_stabeler]

Actually, Regulation Of Interstate Commerce was the right reason to use. It's used so often because it's deliberately broad. ( Literally, Regulation of Interstate Commerce allows the Federal Government to make laws on anything, provided it can be tied to commerce between states in some way. In the case of Obamacare, it's actually easy to explain how ti's related to interstate commerce. Insurers pay out anywhere in the US ( possibly globally, I'm not sure) therefore, an insurer could be paying out to a provider of medical services in another state, therefore, interstate commerce (the purchase of medical services) therefore the Federal Government can regulate it.

[Panacea]

I don't get the fight over the debt ceiling to be honest. Mainly because that is money that has already been spent. in years past, the debt cieling was a non-issue and didn't require a vote...but of course that changed with Mr. Gingrich and crew. And now that the current crew likes to start fights, its becoming even more of an issue.

Setting a debt ceiling was supposed to force Congress to watch its spending. They don't, so there is little point in keeping it. The law should be repealed so we can be done with this issue.

You're exactly right; the money has already been spent. To not raise the limit is the same as becoming a deadbeat and not paying your bills; a funny stance for the party of personal responsibility.

If I over extend my bills, I can't just say to the bank, "sorry, I've reached my credit ceiling, so I'm going to have to demand a spending cut in my mortgage payment." It doesn't work like that. The bank is going to say, "cough it up or we'll foreclose."

Now, nobody can foreclose on the US. But they can make it ungodly expensive to borrow money (the downgrading of our credit rating last time around has already done this), and undermine the strength of the US dollar.

It's insane, in short.

[Gravekeeper]

They make good points about the debt but they are just about clueless as the Democrats when it comes to fixing the debt. A major contributor to the debt is the fact that people at the higher end of the income spectrum are not being taxed at the same rate as everyone else (unless they are getting paid in the form of paychecks...but that is not usually typical).

So, on one hand you say the Democrats are clueless about fixing the debt. Then on the other you say the way to fix the debt is exactly what the Democrats were trying to do?

Okay. >.>

[Panacea]

So, on one hand you say the Democrats are clueless about fixing the debt. Then on the other you say the way to fix the debt is exactly what the Democrats were trying to do?

Okay. >.>

Well, that's not a major contributor to the debt; he's wrong on that. It's a major contributor to the DEFICIT, which is not the same thing. You can fix the deficit in one of two ways: raise taxes or cut spending. Dems want to raise taxes, but Repubs want to cut spending. That may be why he called the Dems clueless. Repubs believe raising taxes just means the money won't be spent on debt or deficit reduction.

[smileyeagle1021]

You can fix the deficit in one of two ways: raise taxes or cut spending.

There is a third way, you can do both... which is probably what we are going to have to do to get out of this mess.

[s_stabeler]

actually, to truly cut the deficit, you have to both cut spending and raise taxes. Why? because if you just cut spending, you'll either not resolve the deficit, or cause so many people to be unemployed you'll cause another recession, or even a depression. ( not to mention, you'll royally piss off everyone you've caused to lose their jobs...) If you just raise taxes, you'll have to raise them so high you'll again throw the economy into recession. If you do a mix, then it minimises the damage, especially if the cuts are spread over a few years. ( it's why the various deficit reduction plans don't call for an immediate elimination of the deficit)

[Andara Bledin]

There is a third way, you can do both... which is probably what we are going to have to do to get out of this mess.

That's what Brown did in Cali, and now we're sitting on a surplus again.

[D_Yeti_Esquire]

Actually, fun facts... the debt ceiling was actually never about controlling spending. Congress never meant to check itself. Prior to WW 1, Congress actually approved and was responsible for selling issues of US debt. When they delegated that to the treasury department because it was too time consuming (not to mention technical), the law was created essentially as oversight of the treasury department. Congress figured it didn't want to deal with the day to day, but the limit could control the Treasury department from being stupid.

The problem here is the Treasury department is trying to pay the checks Congress has already written. Treasury isn't doing anything it isn't absolutely supposed to be doing. It is entirely a... well, useless law (it only can cause default by design) that has been repurposed as a threat to the full faith and credit of the US. It's worth noting it has only been a crisis point three times. In all three cases they involved a Republican controlled congress and a Democrat as president. Once with Clinton and twice with Obama.

If the Republican side wonders why even its own party members can't tow the party line, it's because only the most devout Republicans don't see the pattern. If they want to really swing the public? Abolish the ceiling now and double down on the Shutdown. They'll get blamed for the shutdown, yes, but that at least appears ideological rather than the debt ceiling which smacks of such gross negligence as to question the wisdom of even allowing them the seats as a minority party.

[mikoyan29]

Seeing how clueless they were in regards to the side effects of the shutdown (although with Fox calling it a "Shutdown"), it's amazing that anyone would trust their wisdom on the debt ceiling.