Congressman Confronts Park Ranger

[AccountingDrone]

4 . More reading comprehension fail. Military Chaplains are not affected, its the civilian priests they contract out. Its not illegal for them to minister, its illegal for them to be on a base without an escort. The escorts have been furloughed. And no, not anyone can escort, you need a special DoD badge.
.

Bullfucking shit. I can escort anybody that is not a terrorist group member onto any military installation that is not specifically secured [like where they stash the nuke weapons] and I have taken people on base all over the country including foreign nationals. [and no I can't get onto Groom Lake/Area 51, I have no need to be in a secure testing facility since I don't work there.]

Since the general duty of a Chaplain other than Divine Services is ministering to sick and injured, and base hospitals are rarely high security areas, I cry bullshit that there is no way to get a chaplain on base. If the dependent spouse or child wants the chaplain on base to minister in hospital, they can drive them in themselves.

And I volunteer to drive any chaplain onto the Sub Base to get them to the hospital to minister if one of them needs it. [and if anybody is going to be tourist in the New London area and wants a peaceful drive around on base, I can take them in and show them around with a bit of notice.]

[Daskinor]

Bullfucking shit. I can escort anybody that is not a terrorist group member onto any military installation that is not specifically secured [like where they stash the nuke weapons] and I have taken people on base all over the country including foreign nationals. [and no I can't get onto Groom Lake/Area 51, I have no need to be in a secure testing facility since I don't work there.]

Since the general duty of a Chaplain other than Divine Services is ministering to sick and injured, and base hospitals are rarely high security areas, I cry bullshit that there is no way to get a chaplain on base. If the dependent spouse or child wants the chaplain on base to minister in hospital, they can drive them in themselves.

And I volunteer to drive any chaplain onto the Sub Base to get them to the hospital to minister if one of them needs it. [and if anybody is going to be tourist in the New London area and wants a peaceful drive around on base, I can take them in and show them around with a bit of notice.]

Military chaplains are not affected. But since the grand majority of them are baptist for some strange reason there are quite a few priests hired as independent contractors. Now there is a huge difference between bases and facilities. But in the end because the contracted Priests work for the DoD not a particular branch of the military. They are forced to follow all the DoD rules.

That includes being escorted by someone with a DoD E badge. Now some of these priests might have clearances that allow them to forgo that.

Now you could bring your priest friend on base and show him around, depending on the post the level of access granted.

The line is however drawn at Official interactions with the solders on base. their are strict rules about that, and the whole chaplain services as a whole have strict rules.

[Gravekeeper]

While I agree with your sentiment, GK, that's not actually what Barracuda is referring to. The Affordable Care Act is not a government-run healthcare system like what Canada has. What Barracuda is referring to is not taxpayer funded healthcare, but rather, the fact that it requires employers to provide insurance, and the insurance might cover abortions. Therefore, this is being portrayed as "Forcing people to fund abortions."

I am well aware of how it works and I never said i twas a healthcare system like Canada's. I think you've completely misunderstood what I said. Seeing as I said exactly what you just said but with more words. No where did I refer to it as a universal system like Canada's and I pointed out that the concern is that federal tax dollars, in the form of credits or subsidies to individuals, might end up funding an abortion if the individual receiving them chooses an insurance plan that covers them. In a state that permits such plans on the exchange.

In other words, free market choice by the individual recieving the credit/subsidy. Its like saying "I don't believe in Allah, therefore a Muslim on welfare isn't allowed to buy a Quran because those are my tax dollars and I will not fund Islam".

[Andara Bledin]

His position is bigotry wrapped up with a side of religious oppression masquerading as being oppressed, obfuscated with a wall of FUD that can only fool the uninformed, ignorant, and credulous, wrapped up an in American flag as if being the talking tool for some patriot cult is some sort of position of honor.

[Barracuda]

Aaand I'm done responding. You're not even really debating the points anymore, Andara, you're just resorting to ad hominem personal attacks. I don't stick around for that.

[Gravekeeper]

Aaand I'm done responding. You're not even really debating the points anymore, Andara, you're just resorting to ad hominem personal attacks. I don't stick around for that.

I was waiting for the flounce. Gotta save face and maintain your reality bubble.

[Andara Bledin]

Healthcare itself may not be immoral or unjust, but healthcare forced upon people at the barrel of a gun, IS. If the government can force us to buy healthcare, the government can force us to buy ANYTHING.

Well, let's see. They force us to have drivers licenses to use the public roads. They force us to have public roads. They force us to send our children to school or get them educated in some approved fashion. They force us to have Social Security numbers (unless you go through a very convoluted and difficult process to divest yourself of the same). They force us to pay taxes. And anyone who has even the slightest knowledge that we aren't invincible and has the means already has a health care plan of some sort.

Plus, you can choose not to have health care coverage. You risk being fined, but you can still make that choice.

What's next? Requirement for Americans to purchase war bonds? To purchase certain goods since it's "good for the economy"? Maybe we should all be required to have savings or checking accounts at certain banks. You know, because they're too big to fail. Never before has the government claimed that its power to regulate interstate commerce allows it to compel citizens to take part in commerce. Where does it end? And are you really blind enough to history and to reality to think that there will NEVER be a politician or a President who will let that happen or get behind it and push?

And this is the descent into slippery slope madness. Did you go into this same rant when it was decided that everybody had to wear seatbelts and purchase auto insurance?

This country is already drowning in debt. Where is the money for "free healthcare" going to come from? Is "free" healthcare really worth collapsing the economy and bringing the national debt house of cards tumbling down? I have a pre-existing condition myself, diabetes.

Any research at all will tell you that healtcare in the US is the most expensive and least effective healthcare in the first world. Our healthcare is a sick joke perpetrated on Americans in the name of obscene profit.

No matter where you look, universal healthcare lowers prices and increases care. When people don't have to decide between rent and getting that suspicious mole looked at, they'll get things taken care of before they turn into emergency room visits.

My former roommate will now have the ability to actually manage her own diabetes without having to to into crippling debt to do so. As a result, she will likely be able to avoid many costly hospital visits that under the old system would have all come out of the government's funds. I really don't understand how anyone with the capability to inform themselves doesn't realize that we're already paying for the care of the poor and that universal healthcare just means that we pay less.

But I think forcing all of us, including those who don't need it, to buy healthcare so they subsidize those of us who are already sick is immoral and unjust.

Your morals are not the nation's morals. The majority doesn't agree with you, and as you live in a democratic republic, and both the majority and their representation has agreed that this is overall a good and necessary thing, you don't get to force your morality down the throats of the rest of the nation.

Not to mention the moral quandaries in FORCING Americans to financially support things like abortion regardless of their personal views on it.

Then don't buy into a system that does so. You have the choice of which healthcare provider you choose. Don't like abortion (another fight that you also aren't allowed to force your morality on others over), then choose a plan that doesn't support abortions.

I find it abhorrent that you think that your morality is superior to mine and you are thus justified in forcing me to adhere to it and can apparently see no parallel to that and your own invalid complaint.

[MadMike]

OK everyone needs to calm the fuck down. Debating is fine. That's what this site is for. Personal attacks, as I've seen a few people resorting to, are not.

[smileyeagle1021]

Well, let's see. They force us to have drivers licenses to use the public roads. They force us to have public roads. They force us to send our children to school or get them educated in some approved fashion. They force us to have Social Security numbers (unless you go through a very convoluted and difficult process to divest yourself of the same). They force us to pay taxes. And anyone who has even the slightest knowledge that we aren't invincible and has the means already has a health care plan of some sort.

Plus, you can choose not to have health care coverage. You risk being fined, but you can still make that choice.

A parallel point to that one, we are already forced to buy car insurance to own a vehicle, so the precedent is there to force people to participate in commerce.

[Panacea]

You've left out, ignore, or missed some key facts here:

. Shut down private parks run entirely with private funds Park Shutdown

This is not a private park. It is on FEDERAL land. As is consistent with what the Feds are doing, all operations on Federal land are being shut down.

2. Tried to shut down STATE parks Wisconsin refuses to close state parks

Wisconsin gets federal money to run those parks, which is why the Park Service issued that order.

3. Given orders for federal workers to, according to one Park Service employee, "make life as difficult for people as they can" Ranger quote

You've quoted the ranger out of context. He was speaking rhetorically, not literally, because he was angry about the shutdown.

4. Threatened Catholic military chaplains with arrest if they minister to their troops during the shutdown Priests threatened with arrest

Military chaplains are part of the military and will give services as usual. Because of a shortage of Catholic chaplains, the military contracts with civilians priests to do Mass. They aren't allowed on base during the shutdown, just like any military contractor. If they try to come on base, they will be arrested because they no longer have the authorization to be there.

No one said the military members can't go to the local parish church for Mass, or that anyone would be arrested for celebrating Mass off base.

5. Ordered the closing off of 1,100 miles of ocean off Florida to fishing Fishing shutdown

It's a shutdown. What do you expect? It's federally protected waters. Without game wardens and the Coast Guard to patrol, it doesn't make sense to allow fishing in those waters. That's what shutdown means. If you want to reopen those waters, tell Boehner to grow a spine and allow an up and down vote on the clean resolution.

You can't have a shutdown without it affecting someone or it is not a shut down. The GOP caused it, complain to them.

6. Ordered not only the closing of Mt. Rushmore, but the blocking off of all scenic overlooks on roads (still open, by the way,) that can see the mountain Scenic land closure photo

It's a SHUT DOWN. What part of that don't you get?

7. Evicted people, including senior citizens, from their private owned homes on federal land with only 1 day's notice Lake Mead Owners Forced Out

Those homes are supposed to be VACATION homes. A condition of leasing is having somewhere else to go. No sympathy from me on this one.

None of this happened during previous shutdowns. So ask yourselves: Why is it happening now, THIS time? Why so many small and petty moves, especially in situations where it costs nothing (I mean, come on. Keeping the road open, but blocking the scenic overlooks off? We aren't talking rest stops or anything.) How much money is it costing to pay all the enforcement for the shutdown of all these areas (patrols, overtime, enforcement, posting guards...)

Nonsense. It happens in EVERY shut down.

What's going to happen if the government can blackmail the American public this way when we HAVE public healthcare? (So sorry, you can't see a doctor right now, the government is closed...Emergency? Sorry, have to wait until the government is open again.)

We don't have a single payer system in this country. Obamacare is INSURANCE reform. Hospitals are privately owned or non-profit organizations. The only Federally owned hospitals are the VA system, the Indian Health System, and a couple of speciality hospitals for the NIH. The vast majority of hospitals are unaffected by the shutdown even with Obamacare.

Only if the government nationalizes our health care system and creates its version of the UK's National Health System (NHS) will such a scenario as you describe be possible.

And in case you hadn't noticed, it's the GOP that is blackmailing the public right now. "Repeal Obamacare or the economy get's it!" is their threat.

What's the real reason that all these closings are happening now, when they didn't the last 17 times government furloughed? Why are federal employees guaranteed pay for the time off they're getting? All the blame the Republicans are getting in this (well, maybe not ALL, but most of it,) is total BS and spin on the part of the Democrats. And in the end, the refusal to compromise and government temper tantrums is only going to hurt the Democrats, not help them. People are waking up to Chicago style political tactics, and they are starting to get angry.

You are sadly misinformed. I remember the last shut down (also caused by the GOP). All these things were shut down. Federal employees are NOT guaranteed pay for their time off. Not in the past, and not now. They are NOT getting paid, and Congress will have to pass a law to authorize back pay when the shutdown is over.

I'm actually worried about my mother. Her federal pension check pays for her assisted living arrangement. She's not getting that check this month because of the shut down and I'm concerned if it continues we may have issues paying for her stay there.

Funny how suddenly you care about the law of the land. Obama doesn't. Or how else do you explain his decision to delay parts of Obamacare's implementation despite the fact that the timing is in the law HE signed and he has no AUTHORITY to change it without Congress's approval? No, instead, suddenly it's important that it be delayed until after the 2014 midterm elections. I wonder why that is? Could it be that the implementing the law would end up causing a shock to his voting base that might make them reconsider their support? And "will of the people"? Don't make me laugh. Polls show Obamacare highly unpopular

Obamacare is unpopular because most people don't understand how it works. Republicans succeeded in keeping the Department of Health and Human Services from advertising the exchanges. Many people I know don't understand what the law really does. But as they find out more about it, and see how it benefits them, they like it more and more.

The DHHS implements the law; Obama has the authority to decide how that rollout takes place. He implemented that delay, which wasn't really necessary, to help business owners learn how the law worked and who would be affected and in what way. I have no problem with that; it's a minor adjustment of the law that is meant to help people, not be a straight jacket.

As Chief Executive, Obama has that power. And the Republicans were in favor of it, so I don't know what you are complaining about.

[Panacea]

Healthcare itself may not be immoral or unjust, but healthcare forced upon people at the barrel of a gun, IS.

I think we can do without the hyperbole. No one is pointing a gun to anyone, and a lot of people WANT to buy private insurance, but are priced out of the market. The insurance exchanges will change that for the vast majority of Americans who have to buy their only health care (about 11 million people) because their employers don't offer it (most Americans will continue to get their insurance from their employer).

If the government can force us to buy healthcare, the government can force us to buy ANYTHING.

First of all, you should remember that Chief Justice Roberts specifically closed that door when he ruled in favor of the ACA. So no, you can't be forced to buy anything and everything.

Where is the money for "free healthcare" going to come from? Is "free" healthcare really worth collapsing the economy and bringing the national debt house of cards tumbling down?

First of all, there is NO "free healthcare." Americans still have to pay for their own health care. What's changed is now everyone must have insurance to pay for their health care. The benefit of this is now hospitals don't have to pass on the costs of uncompensated care from the 17 million who were uninsured, and the millions more who were UNDERinsured to everyone else.

The subsidies to help people buy insurance on the exchanges come from taxes on the health care industry itself.

I have a pre-existing condition myself, diabetes. But I think forcing all of us, including those who don't need it, to buy healthcare so they subsidize those of us who are already sick is immoral and unjust.

Then you'd be wrong. It is very moral and quite just to mix healthy and unhealthy populations together in the insurance risk pools because that reduces costs for everyone. The healthy subsidize the health care of the sick. Eventually everyone needs medical care, so those currently healthy people will eventually become sick and new healthy people entering the pools will subsidize their health care.

This is how insurance ALWAYS has worked. As a safe driver, I know my premiums subsidize less safe drivers. But I also know that if I'm involved in an accident, and it's my fault, I won't lose my house paying the damages.

Not to mention the moral quandaries in FORCING Americans to financially support things like abortion regardless of their personal views on it. And quite frankly, if you are going to say something I posted is "false", you need to do your due diligence. Kindly post links to back up your claim.

More hyperbole. When you pool money used to pay for a variety of things, you can't ensure that some of it isn't spent on what you don't approve of. That is not the same thing as being forced to fund someone else's abortion.

Being singled out as an individual to pay for another person's abortion is being forced to fund it. Having your premium dollars, some of which might fund abortion, or contraception isn't on the same plane by a long shot.

I object to insurance covering Viagra for men who want to use it as an aphrodisiac. But I don't feel like my civil rights are somehow being violated, because the truth is I'm really not being forced to pay for anything. My insurance covers ME. My funds are mixed in with the funds of other people and used to pay everyone's bills when required. That's not the same thing as funding things I don't approve of.

Bullfucking shit. I can escort anybody that is not a terrorist group member onto any military installation that is not specifically secured

But you have to get authorization to bring anyone on base. You have to sign them in. You can't just wave at the SP on your way through the gate.

When Evil Empryss was in the Air Force, and I wanted to visit her on base, she had to call to the security shack, and I had to stop there to get a visitor's pass. It was generally good for 24 hours (in some limited circumstances, they might give me a week).

Since the priests in question are contractors, they would be in violation of their contracts if they tried to get access to base to celebrate Mass without authorization.

Since the general duty of a Chaplain other than Divine Services is ministering to sick and injured, and base hospitals are rarely high security areas, I cry bullshit that there is no way to get a chaplain on base. If the dependent spouse or child wants the chaplain on base to minister in hospital, they can drive them in themselves.

If that priest or chaplain isn't on contract with the government, then yes, a military family can probably do that. But if they do have a contract, then they can't, not during the shut down. It's not about whether or not a high security area is involved. It's about the fact these chaplains have CONTRACTS with the federal government that are suspended during the shutdown.

That doesn't stop the military member from going off base, however.

And I volunteer to drive any chaplain onto the Sub Base to get them to the hospital to minister if one of them needs it. [and if anybody is going to be tourist in the New London area and wants a peaceful drive around on base, I can take them in and show them around with a bit of notice.]

Enjoy your stay in Club Fed. Or maybe Leavenworth, if you are in the military or reserves yourself. That would be a stupid fucking thing to do.

DO NOT try and pull a fast one on the military like this. You will not like the results if you get caught.

[s_stabeler]

Panacea, one minor correction: Congress has already voted that when the shutdown ends, the staff get back pay.

[Daskinor]

Panacea, one minor correction: Congress has already voted that when the shutdown ends, the staff get back pay.

The senate republicans are trying shenanigans with that bill today. Not sure it will pass as is. http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...back-pay-bill/

[Skunkle]

So. Many. Awesome. Rebuttals! Explanations and in-depth examination of all the claims made!

"Obamacare," simply put, is a term slapped onto the ACA by those who are against it, after which it was pulled into the rhetoric that everything related to Obama is bad for the country. We've been told countless times now that Obamacare is bad for us. And, per the Jimmy Kimmel clip, part of it is in a name.

I fully understand that there are disagreements with things that are supposedly in it. I would suggest some more in-depth research for those who've told me that Obamacare is "very murky" and "not fully understood." If it's murky, perhaps YOU should read the bill itself and not simply trust what any politician or pundit says about it. I've had multiple people try to convince me of the exact opposite of things that are in the bill. I gave up on trying to discuss it.

It'll stay or it'll go. Whatever. But please, House Republicans: is it really worth being stubborn if you can't repeal or defund the ACA?

[XCashier]

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/lo...226209781.html

Republican Randy Neugebauer, who voted to delay the Affordable Healthcare Act, confronted a park ranger over people who weren't World War II vets not being allowed into the closed World War II memorial

That takes a hell of a lot of gall, to scold a federal employee over something that he himself had a hand in causing!!!