NJ referendum on raising minimum wage. Opinions?

[Greenday]

One thing I don't get. Since when did minimum wage jobs become meant for being a person's sole income? I thought they were supposed to be more for high school/college kids and part time work?

[Gravekeeper]

One thing I don't get. Since when did minimum wage jobs become meant for being a person's sole income? I thought they were supposed to be more for high school/college kids and part time work?

Minimum wage was originally created to stop stuff like sweatshop labour. Then historically evolved into being tied to a standard of living. It was never designed to be aimed at teenagers or anything. Half of minimum wage workers in the US are in the 20-24 bracket. 21% are teenagers and the remaining are older adults. Increasing minimum wage actually causes a small decline in the % of teenage workforce, oddly enough.

Some areas have specific laws that govern this situation, mandating different ( ie lower ) minimum wages for teenagers as they are not supporting themselves solely. But ultimately the idea around this is a "living" wage. AKA no full grown adult working full time at a real job should be starving or homeless despite working a full time job.

The stupidest part about the whole argument in regards to the US though is that the minimum wage workforce is actually very small. Representing only 4.7% of the entire US workforce in 2012. Yet we're suppose to believe giving 4.7% of the workforce an extra dollar will bring about the apocalypse.

[Kheldarson]

One thing I don't get. Since when did minimum wage jobs become meant for being a person's sole income? I thought they were supposed to be more for high school/college kids and part time work?

When companies realized that it was cheaper to hire more part-time workers and string them along until they quit and were replaced at the same minimum wage than to pay for full-time work with raises, benefits, and the works?

[mikoyan29]

One thing I don't get. Since when did minimum wage jobs become meant for being a person's sole income? I thought they were supposed to be more for high school/college kids and part time work?

When low skilled factory jobs (and other low skilled jobs) dried up. Hell, even factory jobs pay roughly minimum wage these days.

But what do you expect when most of the economic gains of the past 20 years have gone to the top of the chain.

[Andara Bledin]

I'm not saying that is ok. I'm saying that if you raise the minimum wage to double the cost of an apartment per month, the costs of apartments per month will go up in response till you're right back where you started.

Except that it doesn't work that way. We have more than enough real world examples of the world not working like the scaremongers would have us believe.

Yes, prices will go up a bit to reflect the fact that there is more money being spent, but the new equilibrium will end up being better for everybody involved, including business owners and renters.

A lot of people refer to the US as the richest 3rd world nation in the world, and if the people hoarding the money are allowed to continue as they are, this will become a reality.

[lordlundar]

One thing I don't get. Since when did minimum wage jobs become meant for being a person's sole income? I thought they were supposed to be more for high school/college kids and part time work?

Early to mid 80's. Regan's deconstruction of the unions and deregulation allowed companies to say "nope! we don't have to pay you more than he absolutely have to for the good of the country!" A trend the GOP wants to perpetuate ad infinitium.

[smileyeagle1021]

The stupidest part about the whole argument in regards to the US though is that the minimum wage workforce is actually very small. Representing only 4.7% of the entire US workforce in 2012. Yet we're suppose to believe giving 4.7% of the workforce an extra dollar will bring about the apocalypse.

It actually is bigger than that... if we gave an extra dollar an hour, how many people who were barely above minimum wage will now be minimum wage? Hell, if we give into the fast food workers' demands a lot of recent college graduates would be getting a bump in pay to be brought up to minimum wage. The New Jersey referendum is at least requesting a reasonable amount of money, but I don't blame the people who say "no, we give you this and next you'll demand $10, then you'll demand $15, and hell, because you feel special, let's give you $20." This would of had a much better chance of passing before fast food workers made a farce out of the wage debate (I'm sorry, but I refuse to even consider paying a job that doesn't even require a high school diploma and no additional more than what can be made by someone who has gotten vocational training or even a recent college grad).

[s_stabeler]

there's still the fact that someone working a full-time week at minimum wage cannot live on their wages without assistance from the government.

and as for college grads then earning minimum wage- um, why would college grads be earning only $1 above the minimum wage?

[smileyeagle1021]

and as for college grads then earning minimum wage- um, why would college grads be earning only $1 above the minimum wage?

That is if we met the demands of the very vocal groups demanding a $15 an hour minimum wage. Entry level in my field is between $13 and $15 an hour (at this time, had our parents generation not wrapped the broom handle with sand paper before sodomizing our chances at prosperity that would be more like $20, but they did sodomize our future, so it is what it is), so I would have gone to college for four years to get minimum wage if these groups had their way. As I've said elsewhere, apparently I've gone about this all wrong, I actually busted my ass to improve myself when all I had to do was be lazy, drop out of high school, get a minimum wage fast food job, and wait for a politician to cave in to my unrealistic demands in an attempt to buy my vote.
I support a minimum wage increase, but only is as much as it isn't going to be used as ammunition by the radical groups that think that you better yourself by becoming thugs than by hard work.

[Andara Bledin]

This would of had a much better chance of passing before fast food workers made a farce out of the wage debate (I'm sorry, but I refuse to even consider paying a job that doesn't even require a high school diploma and no additional more than what can be made by someone who has gotten vocational training or even a recent college grad).

The fact that so many people think it's OK to pay people less than a livable wage is utterly appalling.

It doesn't matter how menial and unskilled the labor is. If the job needs doing at all, it needs to have the people doing it be paid a livable wage.

To do anything else is to prop up corporations on the back of the state. Why do so many people allow corporations to externalize their costs onto the government, and thus, society as a whole?

To support sub-poverty payment levels, is to require all of the people working those jobs to require government subsidization.

It just amazes me how many people are so ignorant of basic economics that they can't see this very simple result.

edit to add:

And to everybody of the "fuck you, I got mine" or "I got screwed, so you should have to get screwed, too" people: YOU are the problem. And if you would stop being so utterly selfish, you'd realize that the solution would benefit you just as much as it would those that are being crushed at the bottom.

[s_stabeler]

That is if we met the demands of the very vocal groups demanding a $15 an hour minimum wage. Entry level in my field is between $13 and $15 an hour (at this time, had our parents generation not wrapped the broom handle with sand paper before sodomizing our chances at prosperity that would be more like $20, but they did sodomize our future, so it is what it is), so I would have gone to college for four years to get minimum wage if these groups had their way. As I've said elsewhere, apparently I've gone about this all wrong, I actually busted my ass to improve myself when all I had to do was be lazy, drop out of high school, get a minimum wage fast food job, and wait for a politician to cave in to my unrealistic demands in an attempt to buy my vote.
I support a minimum wage increase, but only is as much as it isn't going to be used as ammunition by the radical groups that think that you better yourself by becoming thugs than by hard work.

If you are in a job worth more than minimum wage, and the employer is paying you minimum wage, then that sounds like the fault is with your employer not paying you what you are worth. The fault is NOT with demands that people are paid a wage that does not require them to be on government benefits to survive.

On the other hand, IF the demand for an increase is for more than required not to need government benefits, then I agree with you.

[Hyena Dandy]

This would of had a much better chance of passing before fast food workers made a farce out of the wage debate (I'm sorry, but I refuse to even consider paying a job that doesn't even require a high school diploma and no additional more than what can be made by someone who has gotten vocational training or even a recent college grad).

That's really your problem, then.

If a job needs doing, like fast food work does, then it needs to pay enough to keep people doing it. The fast food workers are trying to live on what they're being paid, but they can't. The idea that wanting to be paid enough to support yourself is "Making a mockery of the debate" is disgusting.

[smileyeagle1021]

That's really your problem, then.

Damned right it is my problem. If minimu wage is raised to 15 as many of these groups want, I will become a minimu wage employee and my investment in college will have been worthless, and yes, I will take offense at that. If you think that companies will magically believe that a job worth 30k a year will be worth 60k simply because minimum wage doubled, then you are frankly delusional. All it will mean is a lot more people at minimum wage.

[Andara Bledin]

Two questions:

If your $30k/year will buy you the same amount after a hike as it would before, why the hell do you even care what little Timmy at the fast food joint makes? This is the sour grapes "I had to do this, so everybody else has to do this, too" curmudgeonry that has been holding back social progress since the beginning of time.

Do you honestly believe that if the minimum wage got raised to $15 that your paycheck as an educated worker wouldn't be affected? History already has a wealth of evidence (most notably, the fact that you make more than minimum wage right now) to prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the economy just doesn't work like that and you're getting worked up over the phantoms and boogeymen that the corps and their cronies use to keep people like you cutting off your own noses because you don't know that they're blowing smoke up your ass.

[Gravekeeper]

Damned right it is my problem. If minimu wage is raised to 15 as many of these groups want, I will become a minimu wage employee and my investment in college will have been worthless, and yes, I will take offense at that. If you think that companies will magically believe that a job worth 30k a year will be worth 60k simply because minimum wage doubled, then you are frankly delusional. All it will mean is a lot more people at minimum wage.

1/3rd of fast food workers 20 and over DO have a college degree. There just aren't any jobs for them because of the very practice that created this situation: Treating employees like cattle, moving revenue off shore or tying it up into capital gains ( thus it doesn't go back into the US economy ) and moving production to whatever country offers the cheapest slave labour.

McDonald's CEO made 8.8 million last year and 27.7 million this year. But they can't afford to raise their minimum wage by a dollar? Yes, that protest for $15 was unrealistic, but they're not actually wrong. If minimum wage in the US had kept up with inflation and employee productivity increases it would actually be $17 an hour.

When you adjust for inflation, minimum wage in 1960 was $10 an hour. Since then it has actually been on a steady decline as it has never been corrected for inflation. It was $10 in 1960, around $8 in the 70s, dropped like a rock to $6 in the 80s, bounced between $6-7 in the 90s and then plummeted again in the 2000s to $5.75 an hour.

Right now in 2013 if you were on minimum wage you would make 76% of what you would have for the same job in 1960 despite the fact that the same job has increased in productivity threefold since 1960.

This is why Obama wants to raise the minimum wage to $9 and then fix it to inflation. Which would force an increase on average of 1-2% every year to keep up with inflation.

If McDonalds paid $9 and directly passed the ENTIRE cost onto customers instead of improving efficiency and productivity ( Which if you recall is exactly what every company said they would do first ). It would cause a price increase on all menu items of 4.7%.

So your Big Mac would cost 18 cents more.

And no, I'm not using that stupid 68 cents more Big Mac study that was debunked. This is calculated directly from McDonald's 10-K income statement for 2012.