NJ referendum on raising minimum wage. Opinions?

[smileyeagle1021]

What interests me here are the protests against the differentials of the low wage earners getting more, but nothing about the extreme incomes of the people at the top of the same organisations.

And thus is the problem that terrifies those of us in the middle... we know damned well the CEO won't take a pay cut to make up for increases in minimum wage... they'll do it by shafting those of us who have worked our way above minimum wage.
I'll probably always be a firm believer in the idea that the way to solve poverty in the United States is education and training reform. I do not begrudge the high school drop out who later (or even dropped out specifically so they could) decides to get training in a vocation, they have gone above the minimum and should be compensated for it. But let's face it, I've worked minimum wage jobs, and for what I was expected to do then, versus what I'm expected to do now, I'd say that I was fairly compensated. If we were though to make education and training freely available to everyone, eventually minimum wage would become a non issue because companies would have to compete with a free chance at becoming a highly paid plumber or engineer with no more investment than hard work and time, if they wanted to get people to settle for being a cashier or even to attract the people who really love being a cashier (or whatever minimum wage level job it is we want to talk about) that will truly do it to the best of their ability and have a passion for it. Then let the people who aren't willing to either take a free education for a skilled job or apply themselves to be the best at a less skilled job get what they get. And the best parts about that organic shift in the work force is that 1) the CEOs and elites won't be able to use it as an excuse to shaft everyone in the middle and 2) with education and training being so freely available we might start seeing new innovations actually coming from the U.S. again, rather than having to import them from Japan, Korea, and China.
Minimum wage increases may be a great concept, and in the short run they may be necessary, but they merely mask a much greater problem that our country has.

[Gravekeeper]

And thus is the problem that terrifies those of us in the middle... we know damned well the CEO won't take a pay cut to make up for increases in minimum wage... they'll do it by shafting those of us who have worked our way above minimum wage.

Seriously, have you read anything I've said so far? Companies will absorb an increase in labour cost by increasing efficiency or productivity long before they even consider doing anything to their employees.

I'll probably always be a firm believer in the idea that the way to solve poverty in the United States is education and training reform.

Minimum wage jobs will not cease existing due to education reform. That work will always have to be done and there is no excuse that those working it should not be paid enough to stay above the poverty line. Which is the exact design of Obama's wage increase. Increasing it to $9 brings a family earning minimum wage above the poverty line in yearly income.

But let's face it, I've worked minimum wage jobs, and for what I was expected to do then, versus what I'm expected to do now, I'd say that I was fairly compensated.

The entire economic history of your country disagrees with you as does the rest of the first world. You made $3.30/hour less than someone working the same job in 1968.

If we were though to make education and training freely available to everyone, eventually minimum wage would become a non issue because companies would have to compete with a free chance at becoming a highly paid plumber or engineer with no more investment than hard work and time, if they wanted to get people to settle for being a cashier or even to attract the people who really love being a cashier (or whatever minimum wage level job it is we want to talk about) that will truly do it to the best of their ability and have a passion for it.

And you're accusing the protesters of wanting an insane pipe dream? Education reform of that level will never happen in the US due to states rights. Even if it was implemented, it would take several generations to take effect. Compared to the other solution. raising minimum wage to a sane level, which can be implemented in a matter of months with an immediate positive effect on everyone involved.

These jobs will always exist as will the people who work them.

And the best parts about that organic shift in the work force is that 1) the CEOs and elites won't be able to use it as an excuse to shaft everyone in the middle and 2) with education and training being so freely available we might start seeing new innovations actually coming from the U.S. again, rather than having to import them from Japan, Korea, and China.

You have that completely ass backwards. America is suffering in terms of innovation because other countries can do it cheaper and the 5% at the top want as much $ as possible. Additionally, America's "suck out every last god damn dollar" approach to resources and technology means it sticks with failing or unproductive industries far longer than it should. Then turns to the government to subsidize and prop up those failing industries.

It also consumes far far in excess of what it could ever hope to produce from a manufacturing perspective. You want a billion iPhones, but you don't want the slave conditions required to produce them. So let China do it, they don't give a rats ass about human rights.

The glitch is in production. You can innovate all you want but unless you're willing to pay fairly to have it manufactured in the US and, hell, even if you are, chances are the manufacturing is going overseas. It costs too much money to operate in the US with its assholish economic conditions.

Conditions which were, of course, created by the same money grubbing assholes that are moving production overseas to begin with.

[Andara Bledin]

Your minimum wage is lower than Greece. Greece. A country whose economy is a punchline. Hell, your minimum wage is only 30 cents higher than Slovenia.

We're the richest 3rd world country on the planet, and it's people in the middle so afraid that someone at the bottom might get something they "don't deserve" (as if being able to survive was something to be earned), that they'd rather let themselves be worse off than raise the entire floor.

Minimum wage increases may be a great concept, and in the short run they may be necessary, but they merely mask a much greater problem that our country has.

This is bullshit. Raising minimum wage to a point where people working full time on minimum wage can survive is a full win proposition. It returns the cost of paying worker's what they're worth (and anyone who says a person's labor isn't worth a livable wage is a sociopath) to the companies, where it belongs and it reduces the need for so much of our social services requirements, that we are all paying for.

So, more money to take home, more money to actually live off of, less stress about trying to just survive, more productivity for everybody, and a healthier society all around. That anyone could claim that this is a bad thing is baffling.

[Kheldarson]

And how long should I expect to be worse off than a high school drop out (if they are making as much as me, they will be doing so without the burden of a student debt to go along with it) while I wait for things to adjust?

As long as it takes for you to find a job that pays you what you're worth because they're a decent company?

And hell, I've got high school dropouts who can walk into the store I work at and pay, in cash, for our high end gear. Which would take me at least a couple of months of saving up to do. So college grads can already be worse off than high school drop outs. Choose a different complaint.

You will find very few college graduates who agree with the $15 an hour proposal that some labor groups are demanding, because frankly, most of them would agree with me that it is bullshit to punish those who have invested in themselves by raising those who haven't above them.

Huh. You mean like me, my husband, my best friend, his best friend, most of our friends in the area...? We're all college grads and all working minimum wage retail jobs because that's all that's available. There aren't a lot of jobs in our state and the good ones, i.e. not minimum wage and not service industry, either are construction/mining or want you to come in with experience. Which I can't get because I can't get a job in that type of work. So I can't get hired to do that type of work.

So why can't I be paid a living wage in the meantime in order to support my family? Just to salve some idea that I'm better than a high school drop out because I might someday fall into a job that actually requires my degree?

Talk about your elitist bullshit.

And on a side note, you're right, college isn't just about making more money... there is a lot of intrinsic value to learning, but learning for learning sake can be done for free online, at community libraries, hell, just by talking to people. Almost anyone who says that they are going to college without expecting a return on their investment is either naive (eg hasn't seen their first bill yet and will gain a motive to get a return on investment or drop out) or lying.

Or is an academic? Dude, I want to go back to school and get my master's and possibly my doctorate in history. Specifically Catholic Church history as a focus. I have no illusions that the "return to my investment" following such a path would be very, very small. But I see a value in pursuing such a course for my own interest. Might I get lucky and get a good college position with it? Maybe. Or maybe some published works? Maybe. But it's a goal of mine in its own right, not for what it might do for me someday.

[smileyeagle1021]

You have that completely ass backwards. America is suffering in terms of innovation because other countries can do it cheaper and the 5% at the top want as much $ as possible. Additionally, America's "suck out every last god damn dollar" approach to resources and technology means it sticks with failing or unproductive industries far longer than it should. Then turns to the government to subsidize and prop up those failing industries.

That may contribute to it, but let's face it, that is probably a much smaller portion than the fact that we rank 25th in math ability and 20th in science. About the only things we rank best in is obesity rates, incarceration rates, and belief in angels. Yes education reform like what I'm proposing is radical, but it actually fixes the problem that we have an uneducated population that simply isn't coming up with new value to add. Our parent's generation invented the technology to take us to the moon, we invented hashtags, and at the rate we're going our children will finally perfect the wheel by turning it into an oval. If we increase minimum wage without increasing the value of the populace, all that will happen is what you described will speed up, companies will continue to abandon the United States for countries that not only do it cheaper, but do it better. It may be too late to fix the cheaper part, it may not be desirable to fix the cheaper part, but we can still fix the doing it better part.

[Andara Bledin]

Maybe if our college educated weren't forced to accept jobs that won't even support them so that the people at the top can rape the economy for their own enrichment, people would be more interested in learning.

But when the college educated are forced to compete for the lowest jobs on the market with people who didn't even finish high school, what's the point?

Plus, the idea that it's OK to pay anyone too little for them to afford food and shelter is still abominable. It's the product of a sick mind.

[Hyena Dandy]

It's fine to say "I worked this hard, I should be rewarded." But when your reward is 'Enough to have food and shelter' then you're not saying you should be rewarded, you're saying other should be punished.

[Gravekeeper]

That may contribute to it, but let's face it, that is probably a much smaller portion than the fact that we rank 25th in math ability and 20th in science.

and do you know what one of the most detrimental effects there are on early education?

Poverty.

Yes education reform like what I'm proposing is radical, but it actually fixes the problem that we have an uneducated population that simply isn't coming up with new value to add.

The US actually has one of the highest spending per student per capita in the world yet some of the worst results. Also, as has already been pointed out: The jobs don't exist. There are people working at McDonalds who have two degrees. Their education is not the problem.

Our parent's generation invented the technology to take us to the moon, we invented hashtags, and at the rate we're going our children will finally perfect the wheel by turning it into an oval.

Actually that technology was invented by two Germans. Both of whom were former Nazis that came to the US after the war. But go on ;p

If we increase minimum wage without increasing the value of the populace, all that will happen is what you described will speed up, companies will continue to abandon the United States for countries that not only do it cheaper, but do it better. It may be too late to fix the cheaper part, it may not be desirable to fix the cheaper part, but we can still fix the doing it better part.

You know, I've been giving you numbers, data, history, etc, and you've completely ignored all of it to stick to your own false anecdotes despite the fact they're completely at odds with reality. Minimum wage jobs are primarily service and retail sector, they cannot be outsourced.

The populace is ALREADY undervalued. So what part of this are you failing to grasp? Again, minimum wage in 1960, adjusted for today's dollars, was $10/hour. You get paid LESS for doing MORE work right now.

[HYHYBT]

How would it be if, rather than trying to carch up all af once, it were done gradually (but on a set schedule, passed as law once and then left alone)? Pick a target, $15 or $17 or whatever, which will be raised every year to match the previous year's inflation rate. Raise each minimum wage (7.25/2.15) by $1 each year until it catches the moving target, which it would then stick to.

It's not as much relief in the short term, but it's probably better overall than correcting fifty years of lag in at once by letting everything adjust over time... including the wages of people like Smiley.

[smileyeagle1021]

How would it be if, rather than trying to carch up all af once, it were done gradually (but on a set schedule, passed as law once and then left alone)? Pick a target, $15 or $17 or whatever, which will be raised every year to match the previous year's inflation rate. Raise each minimum wage (7.25/2.15) by $1 each year until it catches the moving target, which it would then stick to.

It's not as much relief in the short term, but it's probably better overall than correcting fifty years of lag in at once by letting everything adjust over time... including the wages of people like Smiley.

This is exactly what I have been advocating (other than fixing our broken education system)... apparently that makes me heartless and uncaring.
Okay, so I am uncaring. I know that the world owes me nothing, so it doesn't bother me that it doesn't owe anyone else anything. The best thing I ever did was looking in the mirror and repeating "the world owes you nothing" until I believed it, because that's when I became dedicated to taking personal responsibility for myself and improving my situation rather than waiting for it to improve on its own. And you know what, amazingly enough when I focused on improving my situation, it improved... I know, it's amazing. Yes, I got help in doing it, I accepted financial aid for college, I got mentoring from my seniors, I even accepted advice from complete strangers. I know, we could go into the myth of how no one is self made, if nothing else they used a government funded road to get to their first interview, but I will take the title self made in that I have gone beyond asking for help and helping myself as well.

[Gravekeeper]

How would it be if, rather than trying to carch up all af once, it were done gradually (but on a set schedule, passed as law once and then left alone)? Pick a target, $15 or $17 or whatever, which will be raised every year to match the previous year's inflation rate. Raise each minimum wage (7.25/2.15) by $1 each year until it catches the moving target, which it would then stick to.

That's basically what Obama is proposing. Raise it to $9 initially to get people above the poverty line then tie it to the rate of inflation so that it goes up annually to keep up.

[Hyena Dandy]

The problem is the poverty line in the US is calculated ridiculously. It's based only on the price of staple foods, and doesn't take into account housing, electricity, etc.

[Gravekeeper]

The problem is the poverty line in the US is calculated ridiculously. It's based only on the price of staple foods, and doesn't take into account housing, electricity, etc.

Yeah, I just noticed that. How the hell does that work and whose brilliant idea was it?

[draco664]

Fun fact: Workers who make more money are more productive.

A line that could just as easily be written as...

Fun fact: Workers who are more productive are paid more.

Are you mistaking the cause for the effect? Or could it be a mixture of both?

Now that small business that everyone says will be hurt terribly with only 10 employees is looking at $64 a day. If $64 a day is what breaks them when they are already spending $462.72 per day (this is assuming that all payroll is spread evenly over 365 days in the year) on payroll alone, then they probably weren't going to last that long anyway.

Considering that the actual payroll figures are barely half of the actual cost of employing someone, your figures are somewhat out. Red tape and bureaucracy kill more jobs than any raise in the minimum wage would.

The fact that so many people think it's OK to pay people less than a livable wage is utterly appalling.

It doesn't matter how menial and unskilled the labor is. If the job needs doing at all, it needs to have the people doing it be paid a livable wage.

QFT. If you work for a full week and don't take home enough to pay for basic living expenses, then there is a problem. That said, basic living expenses do not include cable, internet, mobile phones, booze and cigarettes.

And to everybody of the "fuck you, I got mine" or "I got screwed, so you should have to get screwed, too" people: YOU are the problem. And if you would stop being so utterly selfish, you'd realize that the solution would benefit you just as much as it would those that are being crushed at the bottom.

I helped a friend do an experiment at Uni. Essentially, people in two groups were offered free money (not much, five bucks). One group was offered the cash no strings attached. As you'd expect, just about everyone took it up. (a couple thought it was a scam, and one person had a religious objection to accepting 'charity')

The second group were offered the same amount, but they were told that there was a condition if they accepted it - someone else would be given fifty bucks. They did not know the other person, they never saw the other person.

It stunned me that most people in the second group refused to take the cash. They would be personally better off, but because someone else would be even more better off, they refused.

Most people are fucking stupid, and that stupidity can be channeled by clever people so that stupid individuals will actively defend a position where they will be worse off.

However, minimum wage laws are a sledgehammer approach to a one-hundred-tiny-nails problem. Jobs in different industries have different needs; hell, different companies in the same industry have jobs with different needs. Trying to shoehorn a one-size-fits-all solution will result in entirely foreseeable problems for some.

Those trying to push for the increase will highlight the examples that suit their position - like the costco example upthread where higher wages correspond with increased productivity. Those against the increase will champion different examples - like highlighting areas with many low productivity jobs that will suffer increased unemployment. Neither position tells the whole truth, but the aim is to give people more money on average.

It's the wrong approach. Increasing employment and job market participation is the solution. If the unemployment rate was lower, companies would need to offer more to attract better employees. With more people working, more money circulates, improving living standards and reducing the strain on welfare.

If you got rid of the imbecilic level of paperwork, red tape, regulation and bureaucracy it takes for small businesses to hire, that would effectively make the level of 'productivity' a worker needs to provide lower. It would make a great many government workers redundant however, so that's unlikely to ever happen.

[s_stabeler]

Um, draco664, it has, in fact been proven before that employees treated properly are more productive. It's not cause and effect being reversed.

as for basic living expenses, I might actually include a basic mobile phone in that, since it is important for a lot of things.

as for reducing red tape- name what regulations you want to see removed. Not just a generic "reduce red tape and bureaucracy"

and again, why is requiring that an employer pay at least a wage people can actually live on a debatable thing?