NJ referendum on raising minimum wage. Opinions?

[Fire_on_High]

Oh, don't worry. That's the next thing to go, and I'm sure more'll be glad to see it than not. We're already skimping on food to keep it as long as possible, but there's only so much you can cut.

[Duelist925]

Oh, don't worry. That's the next thing to go, and I'm sure more'll be glad to see it than not. We're already skimping on food to keep it as long as possible, but there's only so much you can cut.

Thank you for responding to exactly one aspect of my post and completely ignoring the rest.

That you've been having to skimp on food sucks ass. That you're likely to lose the Net sucks even more. These are not good things, not things that anyone should be happy to see going. I hope things work out well for you.

But this really just reinforces--the minimum wage in this country is not high enough to support anywhere close to a "decent" life style.

That you're an example of this saddens me greatly.

[Hyena Dandy]

Oh, don't worry. That's the next thing to go, and I'm sure more'll be glad to see it than not. We're already skimping on food to keep it as long as possible, but there's only so much you can cut.

...Kay.

Total number of words in Duelist's post - 317.

Total number of words used to make the point you're addressing - 35.

You gonna address any of his actual points, or are you just gonna be sarcastic?



Additionally, in your appeal-to-tradition, you seem to have forgotten two things. One, traditionally, most of humanity had way more free time than we do now. Two - Traditionally, luck had to do with it. Now, Luck has less, in the US, to do with it. It's still a major factor. Who you know matters. Who your family is matters.

Why should people suffer for being unlucky?

[Fire_on_High]

Being born to the right family is luck. Most likely the biggest indicator if you're going to be dirt poor no matter what you do, or filthy rich no matter what you do, is having the right set of parents. Second biggest is the right set of genes.

Working hard, being smart, trying to get ahead has been devalued to the point it's not even worth trying. Any old ideas about "Go to school, make good money." are so hopelessly out of date it's absurd. "Go to school, owe lots of money." maybe.

Smiley noted this but you all pooh-poohed it. It'll only be further devalued if the bottom is raised.

Oh and for the record. No, they were things I should have understood were above my station to begin with and not gotten too attached to.

[Hyena Dandy]

Smiley noted this but you all pooh-poohed it. It'll only be further devalued if the bottom is raised.

More people being able to live well does not devalue hard work. The poor suffering should not be interpreted as a feature in our society.

[Gravekeeper]

Smiley noted this but you all pooh-poohed it. It'll only be further devalued if the bottom is raised.

"Pooh-poohed" it? Seriously? I demonstrated, with all available evidence, that everything smiley noted was simply not true. Both from a modern and historical perspective. It has never happened before in US history when the minimum wage was raised. US labour is already undervalued both compared to the rest of the industrialized world and compared to its own history.

If you want to argue against reality, that's your prerogative, but don't sit there and pretend like its a legitimate position.

[Hyena Dandy]

Oh and for the record. No, they were things I should have understood were above my station to begin with and not gotten too attached to.

Additionally, I'm sorry that you feel that way. The idea of "Above your station" is disgusting to me. You have inherent worth as a human being. You should not have to suffer.

[KitterCat]

Oh and for the record. No, they were things I should have understood were above my station to begin with and not gotten too attached to.

I for one do not want to back to an 1800's, early 1900 era where children had to work inorder for a family to survive or adults had to underbid each other to even get work. Wanting to be treated like a human is not above "my station" nor should it be yours.

While raising the minimum wage is a multifacited problem, there are fixes that could be placed to force compnys to enact raises. Stop sending work to countries that have no workers rights, no regulations to follow and pay pennies. If a company wants to make something out of country make them pay a tariff to bring it in. The only exclusions would be for food, or items we do not produce.

Stop giving raises and platinum parachute to executives when a companys going bankrupt. Stop calling a company a person for legal reasons. And on the otherside of the companies, lower the corporate tax. Is it any wonder a company looks else where to set up shop where they dont have to pay a much in taxes simply for running a profitable business?

To have someone say that they shouldn't look beyond their station is so disheartening. People have value, that value should not merely be based on how many hours you can work without dropping for the least gain.

[Andara Bledin]

To have someone say that they shouldn't look beyond their station is so disheartening. People have value, that value should not merely be based on how many hours you can work without dropping for the least gain.

I'm still trying to figure out why those who are in dire straits would want more people to be in dire straits as opposed to mandating that nobody be below a value determined to be as "not in dire straits."

I mean, I can sort of understand those who've managed to claw their way up the chain a bit, in a rather selfish, sour-grapes sort of way, but those who have nothing -and thus would only benefit- fighting against their own betterment is baffling.

[kamn]

I'm still trying to figure out why those who are in dire straits would want more people to be in dire straits as opposed to mandating that nobody be below a value determined to be as "not in dire straits."

I mean, I can sort of understand those who've managed to claw their way up the chain a bit, in a rather selfish, sour-grapes sort of way, but those who have nothing -and thus would only benefit- fighting against their own betterment is baffling.

Perhaps because they feel like they might/will get fired, if the economic change proposed might leave their employer unable to pay at all. Something that employers are probably saying, constantly, over there right now.

Another possibility would be fear of change. Fear of the unkown. Even if the change is for the better, it will bring with it new challanges and one could be afraid of being unable to live up/accomplish those challanges.

[Andara Bledin]

I've never had much patience for unfounded fears based on scaremongering, to be honest.

That's part of why I have so little respect for people who accept the word of the people who are the targets of such legislation without any effort at all to do any research on the matter and just cower and fight against measure that would help them and everyone around them.

Honestly, people should be ashamed that a man from another country knows more about the laws and conditions and history of the place they live than they do.

It shouldn't take a history lesson to show that raising the minimum wage has never resulted in mass firings or economic downturn. Ever. In some cases it actually results in an increase in employment.

[Gravekeeper]

I'm still trying to figure out why those who are in dire straits would want more people to be in dire straits as opposed to mandating that nobody be below a value determined to be as "not in dire straits."

Thats why this whole argument irks me. People arguing against their own self interest is half the reason the US is in this whole mess to begin with.

[mikoyan29]

Something is going to give. I mean a huge chunk of the economic gains of the last 30 years has basically gone to the top. What makes them so special? Without the people working for them, they are nothing.

[Rapscallion]

Something is going to give. I mean a huge chunk of the economic gains of the last 30 years has basically gone to the top. What makes them so special? Without the people working for them, they are nothing.

The current culture in the US worships money, that's why.

The worth of a person is viewed in terms of how much coin they possess, or at least on a general basis it is. That's why gangster rappers sing about money all the time. That's why people are willing to spend on designer labels, so that others recognise how rich they are.

Someone has a load of money? Automatic respect, and what do you do with someone you respect? Give them tokens of respect, in this case money.

The problem is with this attitude. Earned money is one thing. Inherited money without the skills or abilities to back up obtaining it is another.

Rapscallion

[mikoyan29]

The current culture in the US worships money, that's why.

The worth of a person is viewed in terms of how much coin they possess, or at least on a general basis it is. That's why gangster rappers sing about money all the time. That's why people are willing to spend on designer labels, so that others recognise how rich they are.

Someone has a load of money? Automatic respect, and what do you do with someone you respect? Give them tokens of respect, in this case money.

The problem is with this attitude. Earned money is one thing. Inherited money without the skills or abilities to back up obtaining it is another.

Rapscallion

I don't have a problem with a man like Bill Gates who takes a company from nothing and builds it up to where it is today. I don't have a problem with a man like William Clay Ford (or his son) who lives off the wealth that someone in his family started especially since that company still shares their name (And Jr. has taken a pretty strong role in saving said company). I don't even have a problem with a person like Horace Rackham (one of the earliest investors in Ford....made a ton of money and in turn donated a ton of money) because he risked that money. Where I start to have problems is with people like Mitt Romney who buy up a company and bleed it dry and leave the juiceless pulp for someone else to clean up. I really have a problem with companies like Goldman Sachs that sell a bag of shit and call it gold. Those last two categories seem to be the types that don't realize that their success comes with the help of other people. All they really do is make more money, they don't really contribute much other good to society. And I'm not sure they make money rather than just move it around while taking a piece for themselves.