Bundy Ranch: The Next Ruby Ridge?

[crashhelmet]

Bundy Ranch is in Bunkerville, NV. It's about an hour and a half North East of Las Vegas. With the exception of the Moapa Indian Reservation, almost all of the land along Interstate 15 between Vegas and the town of Mesquite at the state line is controlled by the Bureau of Land Management.

This all started back in 1993.

The Bundy family was cited for allowing their cattle to roam off of their land onto BLM land to graze freely. The BLM stepped in because the land is home to an endangered tortoise under federal protection. The Bundy family was limited to 150 cattle and a 250 square mile allotment.

When they continued to go beyond the allotment and cattle limits, they were fined, and eventually had their grazing rights revoked completely when they refused to pay fines.

As it stands, they admittedly have over 900 cattle over a 1200 square mile area.

So the BLM Rangers stepped in again, closed the area off, and began rounding up their stray cattle.

The Bundy family claims this is against their constitutional rights and are protesting. Word has spread and now militia members from around the country are flocking to Nevada, armed and ready for a stand off.

Expect To See A Band Of Soldiers’: Militia Members Arrive At Nevada Ranch

Militias ‘mobilizing’ to support embattled Clark County rancher in clash with federal rangers

Youtube Video

Action Alert: Boots On The Ground Need Donations for food and water at Bundy Ranch Standoff

I have no pity for these people. They refused to pay their fines, refused to adhere to the court order, and grossly exceeded the concessions granted towards them. On top of it, they're antagonizing the rangers and provoking them into action while playing the victim.

In the youtube video, there's a part where they're shouting "Who's the aggressor?" while their own people are advancing on the wall of rangers and swinging at their dogs.

[AccountingDrone]

Messed up. I can understand their point of view, traditionally you can pay a fee to graze on the BLM lands, and if they had been paying and previously allowed to graze I can see them feeling that they have the right to continue grazing under some form of appurtenance - though we haven't allowed 'homesteading' as a way to seize ownership of previously empty public land for some years now. The whole concept of some of these idiots doing the whole free citizen and freehold crap is annoying and someone should sentence them to be chained to a desk in law school until they actually learn what they are misunderstanding. Maybe I can dig out some of my law texts and slam then with them until they get a clue.

[Greenday]

Just get some snipers and start slowing picking off the armed people one by one. See just how long they last. They've abused their rights and they have to pay.

[Duelist925]

Just get some snipers and start slowing picking off the armed people one by one. See just how long they last. They've abused their rights and they have to pay.

Oh yeah, because that wouldn't backfire horribly, or be a pr nightmare, or anything. And, hey, when in doubt: Murder every last motherfucker and let god sort'em out, right?

[Greenday]

Oh yeah, because that wouldn't backfire horribly, or be a pr nightmare, or anything. And, hey, when in doubt: Murder every last motherfucker and let god sort'em out, right?

If they are going to kill cops or government agents or soldiers, I'd prefer the radicals die over officials. They are setting themselves up for a confrontation. If it comes down to shooting, the cops/feds should do it the easy way.

And let's face it, you can call it a PR nightmare if they slaughter those people, but do you HONESTLY believe the government would really suffer from such a thing? I don't. Within a week, no one would even be mentioning it.

[s_stabeler]

Oh yeah, because that wouldn't backfire horribly, or be a pr nightmare, or anything. And, hey, when in doubt: Murder every last motherfucker and let god sort'em out, right?

Honestly, I think that shooting them IS justified- not for the grazing, but when they mobilised armed people to resist the Federal Government. THEY were the ones that resorted to guns first.

[SkullKing]

I think I agree with Greenday, they brought in armed people. If they want to bring guns into this, than the authorities should do this in the smartest way with the fewer possible loss for their side.

However, I don´t know what exactly are the rancher's rights regarding cattle, If I understood correctly, he claims that his family was ranching there for generations, before it became a park. But was this just a land the government let people graze in, or was there some actual contract/law that said rancher had a right to graze there?

Land is a delicate issue, and seems to attract a lot of crooks. So I am wary of painting one side as the villain

[Duelist925]

There are smarter ways to go about this than "shoot everyone with a gun".

There are non lethal options and diplomatic options.

I'm not saying the government officials cannot defend themselves, or use deadly force if the situation does call for it.

But that should not and should never be the first option people go for.

If they are going to kill cops or government agents or soldiers, I'd prefer the radicals die over officials. They are setting themselves up for a confrontation. If it comes down to shooting, the cops/feds should do it the easy way.

And let's face it, you can call it a PR nightmare if they slaughter those people, but do you HONESTLY believe the government would really suffer from such a thing? I don't. Within a week, no one would even be mentioning it.

If it comes down to it, yeah, I'd rather the dumbasses die. But more than that, I'd rather no one die.

Cowboying up and going in guns blazing works in movies. In real life, it would result in deaths on both sides, at best.

And if you don't think the media would jump on something like this, both sides trumpeting shit about individual rights vs governmental rights and blah blah blah, then you don't know crap about the media.

[s_stabeler]

Duelist, this situation is analogous to a gunman having a gun pointing at the police. At that point, you get one warning to drop the gun- then, it's your own stupid fault.

on the wider issue of the ranching- from what I can tell, they HAD grazing rights to 150 cattle on 250 square miles. They have admitted that they have 900 cattle on 1200 square miles. As a penalty for refusing to pay fines for such flagrant breaking of the rules, their grazing rights were revoked. They ignored the revocation. The Rangers moved to enforce the revocation by rounding up the cattle and returning said cattle to the ranch. ultimately, yes it's hard on them to lose their grazing rights. but when they got those rights, they agreed to abide by certain rules. They broke them. They lost the rights.

[EricKei]

The rancher is probably lucky that the Rangers didn't just round up the cattle in excess of the allowed 150 and sold them to the nearest meat-packing plant in lieu of the fines...

Not sure if they can do that, but it's one way to enforce it, if so.

[s_stabeler]

I did some more research- It turns out that grazing cattle on the land IS permitted- IF you pay a grazing fee. Guess who has 20 years unpaid grazing fees? Not to mention sued to get the land recognised as owned by them and LOST?

Also, the cattle aren't being arbitrarily rounded up- there is a court order that the Bundys get the cattle off said land- they ignored it, so the cops hired out-of-state cowboys (as in professional cattle wranglers- not incompetents) to round up the cattle- which will be returned to their owners. If that is the Bundys, they will get their cattle back. If they are not, then the legitimate owners will get the cattle. (Another point is that other people graze the land while paying the grazing fees- why should the Bundys get a free ride?)

[crashhelmet]

I've seen reports that Bundy's son David was arrested on Sunday for refusal to disperse and resisting arrest or citation charges. 2 "protesters" were arrested and released yesterday for the same charges when they were found out wandering (scouting?) in the closed off areas.

Bundy's other son Aemmon, the same one that was tased by BLM rangers the other day is asking that people not carry their weapons. He's supposedly pushing for peace but the militia members this has attracted are refusing to go unarmed.

[otakuneko]

Ain't it convenient how we don't actually see the woman get thrown down? Ain't it?

[crashhelmet]

It looks like the ordeal is over. At least for now, anyway.

Local CBS News

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Clark County Sheriff Doug Gillespie, who has apparently been negotiating with the Bundy family for months, has negotiated some sort of deal to end it.

BLM officials say they're ceasing all roundups due to concern for the safety of their rangers and contract employees.