Dear son of a right-winger...

[TheHuckster]

You're comparing a handful of nut jobs on the Internet to a systematic effort that involves the majority of US media. Its a false equivalency.

The majority of US media? Please. Just because you're parroting the same soundbites everyone says doesn't make it true. There has been a concerted effort by the media to encourage left-leaning ideas like gay marriage and environmentalism. If you think FOX News journalism comprises the "majority of US media" you're mistaken. That might have been true 10-15 years ago, but it's no longer the case.

As for Obama and racism, obviously not everyone that disagrees with Obama is a racist, but there has been more than an alarming share of racism directed his way. Holding that opinion is not "extremist" though.

It certainly is, at the very least, counterproductive, inflammatory, and discourages decent discussion about the topics at hand. If anyone's criticism of Obama's policies are retorted with "you're just racist," then it's an argument which will cause just as much spiteful "asshole dad" problems as the son's in the OP, but from the other side, which was the base point I was making: people who use these kinds of debate tactics are going into "asshole" territory.

Also, the US has a binary political system with only two choices. So "vote for Democrats" is not a useful measure. There is zero reason for an Atheist to vote for the current incarnation of the Republican party. Regardless of what they think of the Democrats or if they even vote at all. Given the low voter turn out in the US.

The low voter turn out, I fear, is due to this binary political system combined with the sense of hopelessness that no matter who gets voted in, all they'll listen to are lobbyists and special interest groups instead of their own voters. And, yes, this affects both parties. The political system in the USA is beyond f-ed up, and the average person feels powerless to repair it. It's a feedback-loop cycle. I predict at the rate we're going, in 10 years, the entire voter base will consist of a few hundred lobbyists, and millions of discouraged voters watching the circus unfold on their TV's.

Plus Atheists make up what? 0.7% of Americans?

You're technically right but...

"While only 0.7% of U.S. adults identified as atheist, 2.3% said there is no such thing as a god. Only 0.9% identified as agnostic, but 10.0% said there is either no way to know if a god exists or they weren't sure. Another 12.1% said there is a higher power but no personal god. In total, only 15.0% identified as Nones or No Religion, but 24.4% did not believe in the traditional concept of a personal god."

[Hyena Dandy]

Kill every Israeli? Thats an odd one. Its true that there's a direct correlation between how religious someone is in the US vs how likely they are to be sympathetic to Israel. However, the % of Americans that are sympathetic to Palestine is pretty small in general. ( 17% ).

Yes, like I said... There's a reason they're called the far left.

Plus Atheists make up what? 0.7% of Americans?

Again, 'far.' We're discussing extremism here.

Although in my experience, the r/Atheist types are more likely to be libertarian than democrats. Anti-clericalism is neither totally leftist nor totally rightist, and its present ties to the left in America likely come from how religious the right is.

[Gravekeeper]

The majority of US media? Please. Just because you're parroting the same soundbites everyone says doesn't make it true.

I'm not parroting a sound bite. The concentration and cross ownership of media is a severe problem in the US and creating these polarized feedback loops is the modus operendi of a lot of it. Because it generates ratings and thus money.

There has been a concerted effort by the media to encourage left-leaning ideas like gay marriage and environmentalism.

The idea of a media liberal bias in the US has been debunked so many times now its not funny. Where does the idea keep coming from? I'll give you three guesses. -.-

Also, environmentalism is not a left leaning idea ( or right leaning ) concept. The Republican party has a long history of supporting environmentalism. Its only been in recent years where some of them have started to reject it because its interfering with the money whoring of their lobbyists. It was the Republican party that created the EPA ( Even if some of them regret it these days ). Even McCain and Bush supported environmentalist positions such as alternative energy development and cap and trade.

As for gay marriage, honestly that's not a political issue, its a human rights issue. Its only framed as a liberal political issue in the US because Jesus(?).

If you think FOX News journalism comprises the "majority of US media" you're mistaken. That might have been true 10-15 years ago, but it's no longer the case.

Fox News has had the largest viewer market share for 10 years straight now. More than MSNBC and CNN combined. When Fox says its the most trusted source in news, its not lying. Thats what the actual polling says. Scarily enough.

people who use these kinds of debate tactics are going into "asshole" territory.

Yes, but again the problem is severity. While everyone who disagrees with Obama isn't racist, there is demonstrably people who do oppose him because of racism. Some of whom alarmingly even hold political offices. So there's a nugget of truth running under that one.

Conversely, something like "The gays are going to destroy the fabric of America and turn our kids queer" has no basis at all in reality.

The political system in the USA is beyond f-ed up, and the average person feels powerless to repair it. It's a feedback-loop cycle. I predict at the rate we're going, in 10 years, the entire voter base will consist of a few hundred lobbyists, and millions of discouraged voters watching the circus unfold on their TV's.

No argument here. The changes in the US political landscape and political polarization I've watched even just in the last 10 years or so has been appalling.

[TheHuckster]

Also, environmentalism is not a left leaning idea ( or right leaning ) concept. The Republican party has a long history of supporting environmentalism. Its only been in recent years where some of them have started to reject it because its interfering with the money whoring of their lobbyists. It was the Republican party that created the EPA ( Even if some of them regret it these days ). Even McCain and Bush supported environmentalist positions such as alternative energy development and cap and trade.

As for gay marriage, honestly that's not a political issue, its a human rights issue. Its only framed as a liberal political issue in the US because Jesus(?).

I'm referring to "liberal" influence in the form of the right vs left culture in the US today. You're claiming that the GOP has a cobra-like hold on the majority of the media. If that's true, then there would truly not be any talk about legalizing gay marriage as a good thing, Captain Planet would be rebooted as an arch villain of a protagonist called Super Oil Man, Anderson Cooper and Keith Olbermann would be met with an unfortunate accident, Family Guy would have stayed cancelled, Will and Grace, Modern Family, and The View would have never made a pilot, and MSNBC's tagline would never be "What Progressives Have Been Waiting For"

The myth that the media is controlled by the right simply. isn't. true. That might hold true for radio and Fox News, but that's... pretty much it.

[QUOTE-Gravekeeper]Fox News has had the largest viewer market share for 10 years straight now. More than MSNBC and CNN combined. When Fox says its the most trusted source in news, its not lying. Thats what the actual polling says. Scarily enough.[/QUOTE]

While this holds true, it's steadily declining.

Yes, but again the problem is severity. While everyone who disagrees with Obama isn't racist, there is demonstrably people who do oppose him because of racism. Some of whom alarmingly even hold political offices. So there's a nugget of truth running under that one.

Again, I'm not talking about whether there are people out there who voted against Obama based solely on the color of his skin. I'm talking about people who automatically assume that anyone who disagrees with Obama is a racist. Let's get back on the topic of the OP: If I had a father who I was trying to lead a discussion on, and I say something like "There are parts of the ACA that could be better accomplished with X" and he retorts, "You're one of those racists who won't vote for Obama" then there's no friggen way to have a rational political discussion with him, and I'd be the one writing the letter.

[Gravekeeper]

I'm referring to "liberal" influence in the form of the right vs left culture in the US today. You're claiming that the GOP has a cobra-like hold on the majority of the media.

I didn't say that at all. All I said is that the right of the spectrum ( Not the GOP though they clearly benefit from it ) has a concentrated effort going on and they do in fact make up the majority of the media share in the US. The right wing is far more likely to work together in a concentrated effort because the message control is based on fear, tribalism ( us vs them. Them ranging from liberals to gays to immigrants or whatever the target is this week ), repetition and the control of language. Hence whenever a new spin term comes out of the right wing think tanks ( "Job creators" for example ) it permeates immediately into every right wing news source.

I'm actually agreeing with you on the feedback loop, because that's the purpose behind it. The right gets its message out and the media corporations make their money. Its a win win for both of them. A polarized media in a feedback loop means ratings and money. If you can convince your viewers that every other news source is lying to them or out to destroy America, you've got yourself a loyal viewership.

If that's true, then there would truly not be any talk about legalizing gay marriage as a good thing-

Back up a step there. Majority doesn't mean all media. And we're obviously talking about news and information media. Not entertainment media.

The myth that the media is controlled by the right simply. isn't. true. That might hold true for radio and Fox News, but that's... pretty much it.

I think you're missing what "majority" means. ;p

While this holds true, it's steadily declining.

Actually, its not or rather there is a universal decline across all news viewership due to the rise of alternative sources such as the interwebs. The market shares however change very little. Fox is currently enjoying its 151st consecutive month as the #1 viewed cable news network and its total viewership is actually up by 3% for the first quarter of 2014.

Fox News is currently, per the most up to date Nielson ratings, the third most viewed Cable network in America. And that's in general, not specifically news networks. Fox News is beaten only by TNT and the USA Network.

CNN is 23rd and MSNBC is 30th.

The scariest part is O'Reilly consistently has the most viewership and highest ratings of any show on ANY of the major news networks. >.>

If I had a father who I was trying to lead a discussion on, and I say something like "There are parts of the ACA that could be better accomplished with X" and he retorts, "You're one of those racists who won't vote for Obama" then there's no friggen way to have a rational political discussion with him, and I'd be the one writing the letter.

Well yes, but again this is back to the false equivalency problem. There's far more 65 year old angry white men watching Fox News convinced brown people are here to steal your jerbs than their are 65 year old white liberals telling people they're racist if they didn't vote for Obama.

By the sound of the OP's letter though its more likely dad can't shut up about whatever volatile views he's holding to the point its driving his family crazy. This is really difficult to deal with in a family member, especially if they're so convinced of their views that they can't even agree to not talk about them without an underlying tension.

I have a relative of this nature and it can drive you up the god damn wall. He can stay on agree to not talk about it until someone mentions a topic even slightly connected to his views ( and his trigger is anything to do with religion or philosophy even if it just comes on the TV ). Then you just need to leave the room. >.>

[cindybubbles]

I'm wondering if all this debate is going to boil down to this:

100% Extreme Right-Wing: Kill all humans because they are sinners!
100% Extreme Left-Wing: Kill all humans because they are rich, selfish planet polluters!

I hope not, because if it goes either way, we're screwed.

[EricKei]

On the other hand, as someone who associates with a more moderate viewpoint, I've been called a "crazy right-winger" for...

I have often found that the majority of people consider their own personal view -- no matter what it may be -- to be the "normal" and/or "correct/sane/only logical" view. This gives them justification (in their own minds, at least) to label everyone *else* as weirdos, as they look out in amazement upon all those poor, unenlightened/mad fools who disagree with them.

Keep in mind that this works from both directions on the Liberal/Conservative scale. Former President Bush (Jr, and possibly Sr) is or was supposedly a member of a hardcore sect of "Charismatic Christianity," a group so far to the right-side extreme (to the best of my understanding) that they view the Catholic Church as heavily liberal left-wingers. (I could , of course, be wrong...)

And we're obviously talking about news and information media. Not entertainment media.

It scares the everliving fuck out of me that, at least in the US, cable news channels are effectively considered to be the latter, and thus, under no obligation whatsoever to actually tell the truth. (q.v. Fox News and the lawsuit it dealt with in Florida from about a decade ago)

[Barracuda]

The idea of a media liberal bias in the US has been debunked so many times now its not funny. Where does the idea keep coming from? I'll give you three guesses. -.-

Sources, please? I think it's far from debunked. MSNBC, CNN, CBS, and ABC all show a clearly demonstrable liberal bias and 90% of their reporting and editing staff identify as liberal or Democrat or both.

Fox News has had the largest viewer market share for 10 years straight now. More than MSNBC and CNN combined. When Fox says its the most trusted source in news, its not lying. Thats what the actual polling says. Scarily enough.

So, let me get this straight--because more people watch Fox News, and they lean right, that means there's a right-wing conspiracy to control the news? Have you ever considered that Fox is one news network out of many and that the fact that so many Americans choose to watch and trust Fox as compared to the other stations says something....about the trustworthiness of those other stations? As in, considering that Americans have to choose
to watch Fox, it isn't being beamed into their homes without an ability to stop it or change the channel, that maybe, just maybe, it has more viewers because in the eyes of more and more Americans, the competition has lost its credibility?

Seriously, Gravekeeper. Get an open mind. Accusing the majority of Americans who watch TV news of being brainwashed or mind controlled or idiotic because they choose to watch the one news channel you hate takes a staggering amount of denial. Not to mention personal arrogance, for you to assign such motives or reasons to anyone simply because they don't agree with you.

[Hyena Dandy]

Have you ever considered that Fox is one news network out of many and that the fact that so many Americans choose to watch and trust Fox as compared to the other stations says something....about the trustworthiness of those other stations? As in, considering that Americans have to choose

Thing is, "Trustworthy" and "Trusted" are different words. Trusted describes a state. Trustworthy isn't up for a vote. If you go to court to argue that your news station doesn't need to tell the truth, you consistently and unapologeticly lie, continue to feature people who consistently and unapologetically lie, you aren't trustworthy. If everyone in America is convinced by a liar, that man may be trusted, but he's not trustWORTHY.

[Barracuda]

And how exactly are the other news networks better? Fox may not be pure as snow, but I trust them more than I trust the "mainstream" media. Although frankly, I take all the news today with a grain of salt.

[Gravekeeper]

Sources, please? I think it's far from debunked. MSNBC, CNN, CBS, and ABC all show a clearly demonstrable liberal bias and 90% of their reporting and editing staff identify as liberal or Democrat or both.

Mhmm. Did you know the majority of Americans think the media is biased one way or another? But those on the right of the spectrum are much more likely to perceive media bias? I'll give you a hint as to why that is. Makes for good ratings. But there's only one network that actually sued to be able to pretend bullshit is news. I'll even give you another hint. Its the only news network that requires its own separate Wikipedia article to cover all of its controversies. Heck, one more hint! Its the only network that issues a daily talking points memo telling everyone what language to use about what topics and how to portray them.

So, let me get this straight--because more people watch Fox News, and they lean right, that means there's a right-wing conspiracy to control the news?

No. Pay attention.

Have you ever considered that Fox is one news network out of many and that the fact that so many Americans choose to watch and trust Fox as compared to the other stations says something....about the trustworthiness of those other stations?

Oh my, you're deep in the Koolaid aren't you? >.>

Seriously, Gravekeeper. Get an open mind. Accusing the majority of Americans who watch TV news of being brainwashed or mind controlled or idiotic because they choose to watch the one news channel you hate takes a staggering amount of denial. Not to mention personal arrogance, for you to assign such motives or reasons to anyone simply because they don't agree with you.

Where did I say brainwashed or mind controlled? Where did I say I hate Fox News? I'm not even American. I'm not on either of your political sports teams. But thank you for all of the blatant demonizing in the construction of your strawman.

You've demonstrated my point quite effectively without realizing it.

[Hyena Dandy]

And how exactly are the other news networks better? Fox may not be pure as snow, but I trust them more than I trust the "mainstream" media. Although frankly, I take all the news today with a grain of salt.

Again. Fox willfully and consistently lies. They lie, and then they lie about whether they said it in the first place. They have more outright ridiculous fabrications than anyone else. Your putting your trust in them doesn't make them more trustworthy, it makes you bad at judging character.

[EricKei]

Again. Fox willfully and consistently lies. They lie, and then they lie about whether they said it in the first place.

All of the stations do that; I just lump them all together in one boat. I take ALL of them with a grain of salt when I do actually watch cable news -- which is quite seldom. Each is biased in their own way, and hey, that's their right.

I would love to see a mostly unbiased channel/source, but it's not gonna happen. When it comes down to it, the leanings of the higher-ups are going to color things one way or another, influence what stories get published and which ones do not, and the editorial slant of the channel/newspaper/magazine/whatever. The important thing is to be aware that the biases exist.

Fox just happened to be the first one to get sued over it; it could have just as easily been CNN or MSNBC or whatever -- probably over how MSNBC/NBC *and* Fox did some...*ahem* creative edits...to the 911 call in the Trayvon Martin case. (Fox appealed a lawsuit that went against them; they didn't file the initial suit; please see my prior link.) I think it was inevitable that one station or another was gonna piss off the wrong person; now that the case has been decided, nobody else is going to bother with further lawsuits.

Hell, I *work* for a small-town newspaper, and I'm not about to claim - in any way - that we're innocent of this. Note - I don't write articles, as I'm a tech -- I just take pics when the regular reporters are occupied and do computer stuff; I also do copy-editing, but for spelling and grammar, not for content.

[TheHuckster]

All of the stations do that; I just lump them all together in one boat. I take ALL of them with a grain of salt when I do actually watch cable news -- which is quite seldom. Each is biased in their own way, and hey, that's their right.

Not just biased, but sensationalist. Cable news has devolved into a 24-hour Hard Copy tabloid show.

[ben_who]

There's a certain naivete in Andrew WK's response. I don't blame him for taking to task the letter-writer for dehumanizing his father down to a pile of political rants, but it also assumes that the father is prepared to have a relationship with other people in the absence of political discussion.

I remember reading on one of those political boards about a man whose father was so angry, all the time, that certain words had become trigger words. All the son would have to do is say "Hillary Clinton," without context or discussion, and the father's face would freeze, his muscles would tense up, he'd start making fists with his hands and shaking his head and muttering to himself. The rage hid under the surface at all times, and it took only a passing thought to bring it up.

If that had happened in my family, I'm not sure I'd want a relationship with that person until they came down off the ceiling a bit. That means Dad's going to have to move a little, and the "never surrender" meme currently permeating right-wing politics makes that unlikely.

That doesn't mean I have a solution. There's no reasonable way to force Dad to give up his media meth - like any other addiction, he has to recognize that he has a problem and want to quit. Why would he give up a million voices telling him he's right and smart and and a true patriot and American hero in favor of the one kid in his life who's telling him he's wrong?