Church shooting in "gun-free" Illinois

[Rapscallion]

The basic problem with the gun laws in the US vs Finland/Switzerland (as your 2 main comparisons) is that in those 2 countries, there is mandatory armed services training - so the people there are trained properly to use such weapons - not just walk in off the street and decide to buy one.

I note that the BBC article about Switzerland also points out that they don't have such pronounced areas of crushing debt or drugs. Guns there are a way for Switzerland to remain a free state, not for individuals to gun down someone who didn't show them 'spec' (as it tends to be pronounced).

Again, we run into cultural differences that really make a mockery of the points trying to be made through anecdotes.

Quite frankly, if I lived permanently in the US, I'd probably buy a gun as well for my own protection. The lunatics seem to be too easily able to get their own, so I'd need to try and defend me and mine.

Rapscallion

[AdminAssistant]

It would depend on where you live, Raps. My neighborhood is incredibly safe - well patroled, small town, big university. The main crime issues here are mostly related to a high population of 18-22 year olds - drinking, partying, that kind of thing. There have been quite a few sexual assaults, but generally, if you watch what you do and who you do it with, you're fine. I mean, when they won the championship last year, 100,000 people swarmed to downtown (5-6 block area). People were everywhere! And there were no riots, no shootings, just a couple of fistfights and a few broken car windows.

Big city? Completely different story. When I lived in KC, gang activity was everywhere, there were armed robberies on campus in daylight, drive-by shootings, assaults, you name it. If you go to KC, don't leave anything of ANY value in your car, because then you won't have it very long. And yes, this was in the "good" part of town. And it is aggravated by the extreme segregation of rich and poor. Yes, there were times when I was scared to go to the grocery store or walk home at night. But instead of arming myself with a deadly weapon, I drove to Johnson County to do night shopping and tried to avoid walking at night.

[ditchdj]

Quite frankly, if I lived permanently in the US, I'd probably buy a gun as well for my own protection. The lunatics seem to be too easily able to get their own, so I'd need to try and defend me and mine.

Rapscallion

I have would have no objection. Besides, as a Libertarian, anyone can do whatever they want, as long as it doesn't violate my basic rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

[Slytovhand]

So, going by the anecdotal stories on this forum, combined with a few of the stats provided, it's not really the laws of a country that are in issue ('laws' being in the US, and 'country' being the US...), but it's 'culture'.

I would suggest that 'culture' includes forms of entertainment (lots of TV violence, radio stations reporting mostly negative stuff), general society (rich, middle class, poor, drugs, alcohol, homelessnessetc), and national economics (recession/depression, high debt, high unemployment, foreclosures). I would also suggest that these things aren't about to magically disappear, and as far as the last item on that list, will get significantly worse over the next few years (again, we have threads about this...).

So, very simple question which I'm expecting an answer to... if you give more and more people guns, and more and more people find things far more difficult to live in their society, and the government becomes less and less able to allow people to sustain thier lifestyle (such as being able to provide adequate policing- including basic rights to lfie, liberty and the pursuit of happiness - what will happen?


Personally, I perceive a state of happiness, peace and stable, workable democracy and socialisation... after a bitter, intense, and painful era of terror and warfare, leaving a country with only a fifth it's population, and the rest of the world horrified. But perhaps I'm a bit pessimistic??

[Rapscallion]

I have would have no objection. Besides, as a Libertarian, anyone can do whatever they want, as long as it doesn't violate my basic rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

I wasn't seeking your permission. If guns were as rife over here as over there, I'd probably break the laws over here to protect myself.

However, with so few guns over here, it's simply not necessary.

Rapscallion

[ditchdj]

Oh don't get me wrong. I'm trying to make friends here so I can open myself up for you to gladly spit in my face. I don't play that game. Just saying you have a right to defend yourself and I wouldn't object to it, just like I would hope you or anyone else would reciprocate.

[Rapscallion]

I prefer to have the right to walk down the street knowing that there's very little chance that some lunatic has been easily able to get a gun. You know, the right not to have to bear arms due to lax legislation designed to appease the gun manufacturers.

Want to make friends? We're not Gaiaonline - we're a debate forum. Join in on a few topics - you might find yourself agreeing with people that you disagree with on certain topics.

Rapscallion

[ditchdj]

I prefer to have the right to walk down the street knowing that there's very little chance that some lunatic has been easily able to get a gun. You know, the right not to have to bear arms due to lax legislation designed to appease the gun manufacturers.

I don't know about "lax". When a gun owner uses a gun in self-defense the same protocol is used as when cops use one: They take your weapon and they thoroughly investigate it. If the prosecutor feels that it wasn't warranted or appropriate then you're facing some really serious charges.

With that in mind, being a gun owner, I do NOT want to be in a situation where I may feel I have to use it. And I try to avoid situations where I feel that I may be put in that spot. More live I'm living NOT to use it than living to use it.

[Rapscallion]

When a gun owner uses a gun in self-defense...

That means that they've already got a gun. The laws over there are lax compared to the ones here.

Rapscallion

[protege]

The laws over there are lax compared to the ones here.

Rapscallion

That's why I'm not in favor for gun control laws. Why introduce more legislation...when we don't enforce the laws we already have? Also, if stricter laws were put into place, it wouldn't be hard to argue that they violate our Constitutional rights...the right to bear arms. In fact, that's *exactly* what happened in Washington, DC.

In 1975, they enacted a law banning residents from owning handguns except those registered prior to 2/5/77. That was overturned in 2007, because it violated citizens Second Amendment rights. Odd that, if guns were banned, how did DC have a high murder rate--nearly 500 in 1990 alone? If the guns were banned, how did that happen?

Simple, criminals ignored the law. They either bought them illegally, or went to other states to get them. Again, by their very nature, even if we do enact stricter laws, criminals will find a way to get them. All we'd be doing is taking them out of lawful citizens hands.

[Rapscallion]

Simple, criminals ignored the law. They either bought them illegally, or went to other states to get them. Again, by their very nature, even if we do enact stricter laws, criminals will find a way to get them. All we'd be doing is taking them out of lawful citizens hands.

Police in the US still arrest burglars, but that doesn't stop people burgling - just cuts down the numbers to reduce the risk to property owners.

Shrug - I don't have to live there. Quite frankly, if you wanted to get to a similar situation as we have over here where even criminals are very unlikely to be armed with guns, it would take a huge culture shift. It would also result in a large amount of bloodshed in the decade or three it would take to get illegal weaponry out of the hands of criminals. It would also take a solid will for a long period of time, which isn't going to happen.

From what I can tell, the US is stuck with the cycle of gun culture for the remainder of its existence.

Rapscallion

[Rapscallion]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29582081/

-----I remember before Assholivich got booted out of office there he vowed to make Illinois "Gun-Free" and NEVER budge one MILLIMETER when it came to the NRA.

Too bad some people there don't obey the gun laws, especially in a state where you have to get an approved permit just to own a gun in your own home.

I'm trying to work out what point you're making in this thread, actually - something that you might not have made elsewhere.

Are you saying that preachers and congregations should be armed? Is that desireable?

News came out within the last two days of a school shooting in Germany. Quite a few fatalities. What's your answer to that? Arm the students and teachers just in case?

Rapscallion

[MadMike]

Police in the US still arrest burglars, but that doesn't stop people burgling - just cuts down the numbers to reduce the risk to property owners.

OK, I'm going to jump in here...

Guns have legal uses, particularly defending your life, or the lives of your loved ones.

Robbing someone house is illegal no matter what.

You're comparing apples and oranges here.

[AFPheonix]

Not really. He's comparing something illegal with something else illegal.
You can break and enter to do good things too, like get into a burning building to get a kid out or get back into your house if you managed to lock yourself out.

[MadMike]

I don't think anyone would fault someone for "breaking and entering" a burning building to save someone's life. And I don't think "breaking into" your own house is illegal.

I stand my my comment about "apples and oranges."