Church shooting in "gun-free" Illinois

[Rapscallion]

I can see where you're coming from, Mike, but I think it does stand. See, I was more talking about the illegal use of guns rather than the legal one, though I didn't make that quite clear. Police are supposed to deal with people who have illegally held weaponry, but with the apparent ease of obtaining for ... unsuitable people that exists in the US, I can't see this as anything other than an uphill struggle.

If people use guns legally within the confines of the laws of their nation, that's up to them. I'm just glad I don't feel that I have to arm myself in this country.

Rapscallion

[Slytovhand]

I don't suppose it's worth anything to add to this argument the statistics that the 2 countries with the highest rates of suicide by shooting are also the ones with the highest rates of gun ownership???

[Boozy]

Odd that, if guns were banned, how did DC have a high murder rate--nearly 500 in 1990 alone? If the guns were banned, how did that happen?

I wish people on both sides of this debate would stop attributing every single change in crime rates to gun control laws (or lack thereof).

Here are some factors involved in crime rates in any given neighbourhood:

Poverty levels
Education levels
Unemployment levels
Gap between the rich/poor, especially in cities heavily segegrated by class
Racial segregation
Policing strategies/police presence
Access to birth control
Age demographics
Incarceration rates
Drug availability/usage rates

...and, of course, availability of guns.

But given all those other factors, it's a bit simplistic to take random bits of crime data and apply it to gun laws. It's impossible to control for all those other factors. Criminology experts have been known to take decades studying very small sub-sections of neighbourhoods looking to isolate factors and draw conclusions.

Statistics on this subject need to be taken with a grain of salt, if they're applicable at all.

[Pedersen]

Statistics on this subject need to be taken with a grain of salt, if they're applicable at all.

Personally, Boozy, I like this version instead: Correlation does not imply causation

I don't suppose it's worth anything to add to this argument the statistics that the 2 countries with the highest rates of suicide by shooting are also the ones with the highest rates of gun ownership???

As for you, Slyt, in addition to the above, I'll point this out: The most effective way to kill yourself is with a gun. People who are going to kill themselves know this. Therefore, if you truly wish to die, and live in a country where guns are easily obtainable, what method would you choose?

So, I'll quote and link it again, because it so strongly bears repeating and considering: Correlation does not imply causation

[Slytovhand]

Hey Ped.

Yeah, I get it. I could also refer back to the link to the Australian stats that indicated that shooting suicides in Australia dropped after the new gun laws were imposed (I linked it in the UK laws don't work thread). But yes, I agree - if a gun is readily available, you use it. If not... the stats seemed to imply that, without a gun, some people chose to stay alive, rather than try something messier and more painful (or just plain slower).

But, when I said "I don't suppose it's worth anything...", I was more implying that suicides weren't really going to be an 'acceptable' reason to change gun laws... at least, not in the gun control debate threads.

[protege]

Boozy, you can see some "cause/effect" in areas.

For example, the neighborhood I live in, has always had a low crime rate. For years, you could leave your doors unlocked, and nothing would happen. Small borough, where everyone knows everyone.

Then about 6-7 years ago, one of the housing complexes started taking Section 8 tenants. (For those who don't know, Section 8 is government assisted housing.) Within a year, the crime rate in that section of town literally soared. Why? Simple, the scum (when I say "scum," I mean the criminal element) from the poor areas moved out to the 'burbs, and brought their problems with them. When I say problems, I mean the drugs, gangs, and even a prostitution ring. They moved out here to not only escape the problems of their neighborhoods...but to ply their trades out here as well.

With all that going on, it wasn't long before we started hearing gunshots over there, and the complex was referred to as the "Green Ghettos" (the sign said Green Gables...) By then, the police had set up a substation in the middle of the complex.

However, those of us in the surrounding neighborhoods had enough. Got a petition together, and forced the complex to stop taking Section 8. As soon as the Section 8 people moved on...the crime rate went back to normal. Coincidence? I don't think so.

[PepperElf]

Ever notice how the majority of these mass shootings tend to take place in countries where the citizens have easier access to guns?

Rapscallion

Yeah but in countries where there's no guns allowed for citizens there's always other means.

In Japan they used Serin Gas. Killed a hell of a lot more people than they'd have killed if they had guns.

The most effective way to kill yourself is with a gun.

Since I was already thinking about Japan, I believe in that country the most popular way is by train... pretty effective too.

[Flyndaran]

...
Since I was already thinking about Japan, I believe in that country the most popular way is by train... pretty effective too.

But darn hard to reload.

[PepperElf]

yeah but you don't normally have to reload with that one

though... i am kinda considering getting a gun eventually.
ironically not because i don't feel safe... but because I'd like to keep up my target skills.

and im in an apartment that i feel isn't as easy to break in as my old one. So I do feel safer here.

Isn't that weird, eh? The apartment I felt less safe in is the one where I didn't want a gun. that's just me I guess... my first thought isn't about defending myself but about ensuring my firearm is safe from being stolen.

then again, like it was mentioned about the people in switzerland.. I too have had military training and know how to properly handle a firearm. good old "treat never keep keep"

but now i'm in the mood to watch some Gunny vids. He had a great series about gun laws... but hell his series was so well worded it could almsot go on the main site. Basically... politely questioning some of the laws while saying 'still obey them, just fight them legally' etc. gotta love gunny

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Raps is right in that the US is stuck in a cycle of having guns available to everyone. We could never go back to not having guns. It's too late.

And since that is our reality, trying to limit gun ownership for us is pretty much suicide. Violent crime skyrockest when guns are outlawed, or when carry permits are not allowed, or what have you. Non-violent crimes, such as breaking and entering, or theft, goes up because the crackheads and such have to get money for their next fix somewhere, and they know they can't just rob someone outright. But armed robbery, rape, assault, these things plummet.

Bottom line: the scumbags get bolder when they know we can't defend ourselves. And that should be a no-brainer for the people making our laws.

Go to google and simply do a casual search:
carry permit +drop in violent crime

Here's an particularly relevant article:
http://johnrlott.tripod.com/op-eds/I...onFailure.html

[Rapscallion]

Yeah but in countries where there's no guns allowed for citizens there's always other means.

In Japan they used Serin Gas. Killed a hell of a lot more people than they'd have killed if they had guns.

Well, there are other methods, but gas isn't usually the first one to be used. There were maybe one or two such attacks from memory? I've not looked it up, but I rather suspect that sarin is profoundly illegal, what with it being a nerve gas, especially as it's very difficult to make safely (I looked on wikipedia and apparently it attacks the seals of the preparation equipment). It's not readily available, and I've yet to hear of lobby groups campaigning for its availability.

Sure, if someone wants to kill others, they'll find a way, but there's no real reason to make it easy for them.

I still think the US is condemned to guns all the way, though.

Rapscallion

[RecoveringKinkoid]

We are, Raps. I am in favor of our right to bear arms, but I am in favor of it because we can never, ever go back. Pandora's box is open and we'll never get rid of them all now. It would be impossible. So yeah, we are condemned to NEED guns.

I kind of envy countries where nobody has guns. Yeah, people will find other means, but I'm not likely to be hit with a stray knife or ball bat.

We've always had guns, so we are condemned to always need them.

[Slytovhand]

No, I don't think you are at all.

Sure, it will take time, but I certainly envisage a century where peace will be world-wide, as well as a society where such things really are a thing of the past....

Just not likely in our lifetimes.

[AFPheonix]

I doesn't hurt my feelings to live in a place that has guns, even needs them in places.
I fail to see why any attempt to clean up leaks on illegal guns or preventing people that shouldn't have them in the first place (Mexican cartels, people with violent history or suicide attempts) infringes on Joe Schmoe's ability to apply for and own a hunting rifle or handgun. It shouldn't. It most likely wouldn't, but seeing as a lot of people freak out about something as benign as a waiting period, it will be a long time before we see any pragmatic reform in our gun laws.

[Wingates_Hellsing]

If people really want to kill each other, they'll find a way, and if they're really dead set on using a gun, they'll find a way to get one. And while most all information must be taken with a grain of salt these days, the most individually devestating gun crimes tend to take place where no one is so armed legally or otherwise.

People seem to like connecting the U.S. love of all things firearm to the high numbers of related violence, but if you look carefully, these incidents are more or less contained to areas of extreme poverty, etc. and that most places worldwide with the same conditions have this exact same problem.

It's also worth note, I think, that in most countries it's quite possible to buy firearms, it's just not as common or as easy as in some areas in the U.S.