The Confederate Battle Flag

[mathnerd]

I'm surprised there isn't already a discussion on this.

I have two thoughts:

1) I'm so glad that people are finally getting a clue how horrible the flag really is, and that it's not a "heritage" thing like many are trying to make it out to be.

2) It's not the Stars and Bars!!!!!! This is driving me absolutely batty. The Stars and Bars was a specific flag that served as the national flag for the Confederacy in 1861. Due to it's similarity to the Union flag, it caused major confusion on the battlefield and was retired fairly quickly. The flag we call the "Confederate" flag today was actually the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia, otherwise called the Southern Cross or St. Andrew's Cross. The design was also incorporated into two later national flags: the Stainless Banner and the Bloodstained Banner. I realize this is a picky point, but I feel that it's important to be historically accurate to the greatest extent possible. We can argue many things about the hows and whys of the war, but the names of the various flags are pretty easy to be accurate about.

[TheHuckster]

There was a thread revolving around the subject, although it was originally about some of the more extreme reactions to the flag.

I agree that the flag isn't a "heritage" thing. I know people across the Internet have Godwinned it, comparing it to Germans flying a Nazi flag because it's part of their "heritage," but it's one of the few times Godwin applies IMO. The flag represents a very dark time in the nation's history, and especially in the south's history. Of course, then the people on the other side then compare the flag to the Union Jack. Nevermind that the Union Jack is a national flag representing what is now an allied nation that brings us tasty biscuits and witty television sitcoms.

Now, if people want to have it displayed as a reflection of their ignorance and "rebellious nature" then so be it. But, whether they realize it or not, the flag (along with the Stars and Bars in other places) was flown by southern leaders throughout the 1950s and 60s as a symbol of their opposition to the Civil Rights Movement. It became re-adopted as a symbol of racism and hate in the last century.

It's disturbing that, after the civil rights movement abolished Jim Crow Laws, and segregation was ruled over 50 years ago people still stick behind the flag as if it's some source of pride. I'd be ashamed of that part of history, and do everything I could to disassociate myself from it.

[Jester]

To a lot of Southerners, the Confederate Battle Flag* IS about Southern pride, because that is how they were raised. To many people, it's all about Southen charm, Southern cooking, country music, pickup trucks, family, farms, and so many other things that "the South" embodies.
(*Yes, I know it's the flag of the NVA. People have been calling it the Confederate Flag so long, I do so now just for ease of conversation. Also, side note: if it's not considered by Southerners as the Confederate Battle Flag, but "only" the flag of the Northen Virginia Army, why do so many Southerners not from Virginia fly it so proudly, and why is it on the state flag of Mississippi and the Capitol grounds of South Carolina, neither one of which is actually IN Virginia?)

That is not to say these people are correct, mind you. It's just that that is what many believe. For that, I can't fault them. We are often a very willfully ignorant society. Why should this be an exception?

So if people want to fly this flag from their homes and their cars, on their shirts and their hats, I have no problem with it. Some will think such people are racist. Seem times they'll be right, sometimes they'll be wrong. Different Southerners view the flag differently.

My problem is with flying that flag from statehouses, having it at Capitol buildings, and having it incorporated into state flags. (Hello, Mississippi.) Not just for the racist history of the flag, which must be considered, but also because it is one of the flags of a failed, treasonous, armed insurrection against the United States. This flag was one of several raised by those who raised arms against this country. We don't fly the Japanese flag on statehouse grounds. We don't incorporate the German flag (WWI model) into any state flags. Why should the flag of another former enemy of the U.S.A. be treated any differently?

Back to the people who fly this flag personally.... While I don't have a problem with it per se, I find it amusing that some of the same people who are so quick to wave the American flag and declare their patriotism (and denounce yours if you don't) will fly the flag of traitors.

[wolfie]

but also because it is one of the flags of a failed, treasonous, armed insurrection against the United States.

Yet you support flying the flag of a treasonous, armed insurrection against the lawful sovereign of the British Empire, of which the North American colonies were a part? Does a treasonous action being successful somehow make it sacred instead of shameful?

[Kheldarson]

Yet you support flying the flag of a treasonous, armed insurrection against the lawful sovereign of the British Empire, of which the North American colonies were a part? Does a treasonous action being successful somehow make it sacred instead of shameful?

"To the victors go the spoils", as it were. We're no longer part of the Empire, but SC, and other states, are part of the US. The US flies a flag that is symbolic of the nation; SC has been flying a flag that is a symbol of a divide.

[s_stabeler]

There's also the fact that America has long since buried the hatchet with the UK- including coming to our aid in both world wars, however late - and so the Stars And Stripes has basically no offensive meaning. Wheras the Confederate colours have never been used except as a symbol of oppression of black people.

[Rageaholic]

There's also the fact that America has long since buried the hatchet with the UK- including coming to our aid in both world wars, however late - and so the Stars And Stripes has basically no offensive meaning. Wheras the Confederate colours have never been used except as a symbol of oppression of black people.

Yeah, and also, they lost. They're a thing of the past. And when that thing of the past is slavery, it's hard to defend.

[Jester]

Yes, the birth of this country came from a treasonous rebellion. No different than what the Confederacy tried to do,

But th difference is that the USA succeeded, and afterwards made peace with the UK. Whereas the Confederacy failed, and while they made peace in the sense of surrendering, the continued flying of Confederate symbols on US land and, more importantly, at US state houses, is a thumb of the nose to the rightful government of this country. Does the American flag fly from any British state houses? Not that I'm aware of. And if it does, it is done so by British decree, not as a fuck you to the English from their former colonies.

It is not just a matter of failure or success. These same people, as I said, are quick to wave the American flag and proclaim their patriotism when it suits their purpose, but at other times, they fly the flag of traitors? Again, I don't care if people wave this flag from personal property. But due to its history as a symbol of those would enclave others due to the color of their skin AND as a symbol of traitors to this country, this flag cannot and should not fly from any official American state house or governmental office, period.

History was against the Confederacy in the 1860s, and it's against its flag today.

[Andara Bledin]

Does the American flag fly from any British state houses? Not that I'm aware of. And if it does, it is done so by British decree, not as a fuck you to the English from their former colonies.

The more analogous question would be whether the British flag flied in the US (you know, the loser of the fight on what used to be their ground). Of course, the answer is precisely the same.

And it's the symbol of traitors and slavers. You can't forget the slavery part, because that is the sole and fundamental reason they became traitors in the first place. Every document from the era features their need to keep and use slaves prominently and their assertion that the abolition of slavery was an overreach of the federal government.

The relevent quote from the Confederate States of America - Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union

We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have been defeated, and the Government itself has been made destructive of them by the action of the non-slaveholding States. Those States have assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection.

Anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is either a liar or ignorant, and probably both.