Tired of this "elitist" BS

[Puckishone]

As some of you know, I'm a bit of a stickler for proper grammar and correct spelling and usage, both in writing and in speech. Well, for the umpteenth time I've been called an "elitist" because I believe it's important for one to have mastery over one's native language, and, frankly, I'm sick of it. Do I go round whacking people with a stick when I hear a malapropism? Do I threaten a grammar jihad for the people who confuse "they're," "their" and "there"? No!! I may rant about it from time to time, but that's it. In my opinion it's something that shouldn't happen, but does; I accept it and move along.

So can someone please explain to me how this makes me an "elitist"? I'd also be much obliged if someone told me what, exactly, an "elitist" is, anyhow? And how does a gal from the wrong side of the tracks, who went to a so-so state university and works a so-so job get to be one?

[Pedersen]

First point: If that makes you an elitist, then I guess I am one too. I can read bad spelling, bad grammar, and 1337-speak. But the fact that I can does not mean I want to read it.

Good grammar and spelling makes it comfortable to read the post. There are several posters at CS who I just barely look at what they write simply because I know I'll hate reading it that much. No, I won't name names. No point in going after individuals.

I always try to provide the same in what I write. For me to make a typo is common. For that typo to be published is rare, even in IM.

Oh, and elitist? That's the moron excuse for "Fine, I can't spell, and my mastery of the language is so poor that it makes English teachers cry themselves to sleep over night, but you can still understand me. So, picking on my spelling and grammar are just ways for you to pretend you're better than me, you elitist snob!"

I'm an elitist. The only difference is that I gave up on making anybody else care a long time ago. Why piss people off by reminding them of their inadequacies? I just shrug it off, and ignore them.

[AFPheonix]

I typically don't ding people on their grammar or spelling, because chances are the one time I do, I'll have an error in my post.
I will grant that I can be verbose and use run-on sentences a fair amount, but I spell relatively well and my grammar is pretty good, too.

What I don't get is why people who KNOW they have issues with spelling while posting on the internet don't bother picking up a spellchecker plug in. All you have to get is Google toolbar, it has a bloody spell checker in it!

But yeah, on CS and other boards I frequent, I pretty much skip over posts by people who either can't make themselves clear on a regular basis or can't be bothered to type on a level more complicated than "O RLY? LOLZ". They're really just shooting themselves in the foot by not communicating effectively.

[Boozy]

Elitist?!

Someone explain to me how learning how to spell, or even learning how to use a spell checker, is a skill that is only accessible to the rich and powerful?

I agree with the comments already made - there are several posters on CS whose posts I just never read. I see their username and scroll right by. They may have some interesting things to say, but I'll never know.

Refusing to use a spell check and then expecting others to decipher your post is kind of rude, really.

[powerboy]

The only problem I have with writing things, is using "commas". As everyone knows when I post. It is because, back when I was in school. The teacher never really taught the class, how to use it properly.

I would rather read something, that is not AOL Speak.

[ArenaBoy]

I am not only a stickler for proper grammar on the internet, but I am also a stickler for proper English in real life. My little sister constantly says "coolio" to the point that I want to bash a dictionary over her head. I don't mind people not capitalizing as long as it's coherent but if it's a run-on sentence then forget it. I can also understand the occasional mix-up of their, there, and they're. Happens to me once in a while but I go back and edit my post.

[linguist]

i'm going to go out on a limb here and make a statement that may not be so popular: i don't believe in "proper" grammar. grammatically speaking, i'm a descriptivist; this means i make my grammar judgements based on consistency of use and not some arbitrary set of rules (and they are arbitrary. what prescriptivists consider "proper" grammar is largely due to the influence and personal preferences of a single person, bishop robert lowth, and a book he wrote in the 18th century: "a short introduction to english grammar with critical notes"). i believe that every person develops their own grammar, and as long as it's used consistently and is able to be understood by listeners or readers, that grammar is correct for that person. it may not be your grammar, it may not be my grammar, but that doesn't necessarily make it incorrect.

a much more eloquent article describing my feelings on this matter can be found here.

as for proper english, who decides what is and isn't proper? you can't really rely on a dictionary, as words we use everyday aren't in the dictionary, or weren't so very long ago. arenaboy used just such a word in his previous post: internet. and what device do you use to connect to said internet? i'm going to go out on a limb and say a modem, as opposed to the more proper modulator/demodulator. what do you watch while you relax at night? television. not truly a proper english word. not even a proper borrowing, really, as it throws together elements of both greek and latin. i could go on and on. that's the beauty of the english language. it's beautifully adaptible and highly accepting of change, even if some of its speakers aren't.

[ElMarko]

So can someone please explain to me how this makes me an "elitist"? I'd also be much obliged if someone told me what, exactly, an "elitist" is, anyhow? And how does a gal from the wrong side of the tracks, who went to a so-so state university and works a so-so job get to be one?

Because in the 18th century, mostly in England, people who weren' t kings, knights, barons, poobahs or whatever were rising in wealth and influence do to the beginning industrial revolution. The heredetary aristocracy hated this and had to put these upstarts down so they started making fun of the way they talk and holding the way people in court spoke as the "proper" way to speak. It was all about social exclusion. "Sure that guy may be wealthy but he is just some Manchester rube, not really one of us."

[Puckishone]

Linguist: I appreciate some good post-modern deconstructionism as much as the next person </sarcasm>, but I don't think that "we make our own grammar" is such a good rule of thumb in a country based on the notion that immigrants from far and wide can come together and live successfully while bolstering a great nation. The adaptability of English doesn't lead to the conclusion that all rules governing its usage must therefore be arbitrary and situational. The inclusion of words like "internet" doesn't mean that we must abandon all pretense of structure just because "everyone" doesn't follow those rules.


ElMarko: Historical background appreciated; thank you.

[Rapscallion]

Oddly enough, I'm going to rip one of our officers a new one in the near future mostly because he is one of our public faces. He deals with coop development and so forth, so he answers email queries from students and the like who want to know how we work. The phrase "remedial English course" is going to be used. He then sends these out to work to show how clever he was in responding. It's like watcihng a five-year-old proudly displaying some painted pasta glued to a sheet of card and saying it looks like you, excpet without the endearing part.

For me, grammar is how you present yourself to the world. I'll make mistakes and typos, but they aren't from an attitude of it doesn't matter.

Rapscallion

[ArenaBoy]

Linguist: When I read text I imagine a voice going through my head and when I see text that is in lower case letters it's as if the person is whispering. When I see text that's in ALL CAPS then it reads like the person is yelling. When I see a post without any commas or periods, I stop reading the post. I don't mind the lower case as long as the grammar is proper but if it's in all caps then forget it.

As for internet, it comes from the words international and network. Television means to see at a distance. Tele is meant to be combined with words such as telekinesis and television.

You'd be surprised at the fact that in some countries they have an institution that decides the proper ways of their language. France is notorious for this.

The way you write and speak shows who you are and it says a lot about you.

I'm sure even cavemen had a proper way of grunting too I imagine.

[Ree]

i'm going to go out on a limb here and make a statement that may not be so popular: i don't believe in "proper" grammar. grammatically speaking, i'm a descriptivist; this means i make my grammar judgements based on consistency of use and not some arbitrary set of rules...

while you are certainly free to adopt that style of language, that's probably one of the most laughable and ridiculous things I've ever read. As far as I'm concerned, it's a cop-out excuse for not taking the time to spell words properly, or construct sentences.

You are correct that language evolves - so does science.
No matter how much we learn, and theories change, though, there are some pretty basic facts that don't change.
It's the same with sentence structure and spelling.

A comma is always going to be a comma and perform a specific function, as is a period.

It's the same with the basics of proper nouns that are capitalized, as well as basic sentence structure with a noun and verb having pretty specific definitions as well.

What do I know, though?
I'm not as well read as some, and I'm a little too set in my ways.

[EmiOfBrie]

A comma is always going to be a comma and perform a specific function, as is a period.

Except in currency, where depending on your country the comma and period may switch functions

case in point:

$1,452.99
€1.452,99

[Ree]

Yes, but I wasn't talking about currency.

[Seshat]

I have formal, informal and extremely informal modes of speech and writing.

My most formal is used in formal situations, and has grammar correct to one of the formal style guides (Strunk and White, for example). Spelling, in my formal writing, is correct to the Macquarie Dictionary, unless I'm writing for a specifically US or UK market. (The Macquarie because I'm Australian.)

My informal speech and writing uses common-usage grammar. I'm careful with both grammar and spelling to maintain clarity and to avoid ambiguity. I use the rules of grammar to help clarify what I'm trying to say.

Even the most casual use of grammar is important. Take the sentence 'the cat sat on the mat'. Which item was placed above the other? The cat. How do we know? Because of the subject-verb-object rule of grammar. The cat is the sitter, the mat the sittee.

Convention matters. Else like Yoda we would speak.

My most informal writing I reserve for times when I'm writing something and don't care if anyone can understand it.

Careful I am, not like Yoda to speak, when care I do.