Avatar and why I like it!

[Hobbs]

No, his country didn't kill his brother, but he didn't betray his country, he betrayed "his people" or his society, and his society produced the person who did kill his brother. He was injured in combat, it's not a life saving procedure, but still one that many would say a country should provide for their wounded soldiers if it is possible. His people valued his service so little they wouldn't perform a simple surgery in repayment for him risking his life to protect theirs.

And, yes, you do serve your country honorably as a Catholic, my country won't let me serve honorably as a gay man. And, if I may be blunt, it is partly because of the Catholic church that it will be a long time before I would be able to serve my country as a gay man.

The Catholic Church has nothing to do with US DoD policy. The Catholic chaplain made that perfectly clear during one of my many briefings. You could serve in the Armed Forces if you wanted to, as many of your gay brothers and sisters do; but you choose to keep your hate. You chose the words "...betray my country..." which is why I assumed you meant his country betraying him and not his society.

The movies presents a dystopia from our current society; a fall from what we are, considering that his healthcare doesn't seem to par with ours.

Can you please provide citation for your claim about the concentration camps? The only ones I find point to the German government, and not the US, as the ones who did that.

[smileyeagle1021]

The Catholic Church has nothing to do with US DoD policy. The Catholic chaplain made that perfectly clear during one of my many briefings. You could serve in the Armed Forces if you wanted to, as many of your gay brothers and sisters do; but you choose to keep your hate.

First, The Catholic church, like all churches, influence their members in how they vote... Catholics (along with most conservative Christians) vote against any politician that will even admit that gays and lesbians are decent people and not sexual deviants.
And yes, gays and lesbians serve... but they are not permitted to serve honorably. They are told they must be liars or get the fuck out.

[Hobbs]

First, The Catholic church, like all churches, influence their members in how they vote... Catholics (along with most conservative Christians) vote against any politician that will even admit that gays and lesbians are decent people and not sexual deviants.
And yes, gays and lesbians serve... but they are not permitted to serve honorably. They are told they must be liars or get the fuck out.

It's not a lie if you don't say it.

I've never been told in Church how to vote, and I know many Catholics who don't vote the way you say they do. Catholics are far from Conservative Christians (are actually despised by the more extreme ones).

[smileyeagle1021]

It's not a lie if you don't say it.

Ever hear of a lie of omission?
What is a gay soldier supposed to say when someone asks about why he doesn't have a girlfriend? Yes, by strict definition the person who asked has violated the "don't ask" part of don't ask don't tell, but there is no way for the gay soldier to answer in a way that isn't either 1) a lie or 2) going to raise suspicion. To date I have not heard of a single heterosexual discharged for asking someone their orientation, but I have heard of quite a few gay soldiers discharged because they had someone get too curious and outed them.

[Hobbs]

Ever hear of a lie of omission?
What is a gay soldier supposed to say when someone asks about why he doesn't have a girlfriend? Yes, by strict definition the person who asked has violated the "don't ask" part of don't ask don't tell, but there is no way for the gay soldier to answer in a way that isn't either 1) a lie or 2) going to raise suspicion. To date I have not heard of a single heterosexual discharged for asking someone their orientation, but I have heard of quite a few gay soldiers discharged because they had someone get too curious and outed them.

It's probably because it's a much more rare occurrence, but it has happened, I can assure you. I'd prolly have to delve into endless JAG records to find it though, because that's how the military is with records. For the most part, I think it's not reported because it's not as juicy a story as, "He got kicked out for being gay! Military is teh ebil!!" I know of one case that happened as you described, because my Commandant was the reporting officer (not the one who reported it, the one it was reported to).

[smileyeagle1021]

It's probably because it's a much more rare occurrence, but it has happened

So, it's much rarer... does that imply that the majority of the gay people discharged have voluntarily outed themselves for no other reason than for the hell of it? Yes there are some who have done it to make a political statement or because they have changed their mind about being in the military (I wouldn't be surprised if straight people haven't used that technique to get out of conflict). That leaves the rest who have been outed somehow against their will. What pray tell is the punishment for a soldier who outs a fellow soldier? Is there one? Is it ever actually used?
And also, why are gay soldiers still discharged under DADT when they are outed even if they didn't out themselves? I keep hearing that the law is only that a soldier cannot announce their orientation, if someone else announces it without the LGBT soldier's consent, why is it the LGBT soldier who is punished?

To keep the thread from moving further off topic, the point was that it was realistic just how "little" it took for Jake to turn traitor is realistic considering that people already alienated don't need much of an excuse to turn coat.

[Hobbs]

So, it's much rarer... does that imply that the majority of the gay people discharged have voluntarily outed themselves for no other reason than for the hell of it? Yes there are some who have done it to make a political statement or because they have changed their mind about being in the military (I wouldn't be surprised if straight people haven't used that technique to get out of conflict). That leaves the rest who have been outed somehow against their will. What pray tell is the punishment for a soldier who outs a fellow soldier? Is there one? Is it ever actually used?
And also, why are gay soldiers still discharged under DADT when they are outed even if they didn't out themselves? I keep hearing that the law is only that a soldier cannot announce their orientation, if someone else announces it without the LGBT soldier's consent, why is it the LGBT soldier who is punished?

To keep the thread from moving further off topic, the point was that it was realistic just how "little" it took for Jake to turn traitor is realistic considering that people already alienated don't need much of an excuse to turn coat.

I dunno the punishment, because I've never sat in on a court-martial. I know it's not dismissal though. It is punished, as I mentioned in my previous posts. I like how you gleen over what you don't like what I say. I don't see how finding out someone is gay is finding out "against their will." You're making it sound like them military interrogates people or something.

They're dismissed because, as much as you or I dislike it, it's illegal.

[smileyeagle1021]

As to not derail the thread further, I've started a new thread on DADT and what it implies

[Hyena Dandy]

And as for Smiley's point about Avatar, which is rather the point of this thread, I don't think that Jake felt betrayed by his country for most of the movie, except for when they told him to do something he felt was clearly wrong. I haven't watched the movie lately, or intently, so I may be wrong, but it seems to be the country was trying to take care of him DESPITE not being able to fix his problem. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong though. :3 I also think your 'his society produced the person who hurt him' thing works. I wouldn't stop being American if I was mugged, even though my 'society' produced the mugger. And even then, there are different cultures inside of one society. If I was mugged, I probably have very few cultural similarities to the mugger.

And while I disagree with why you say he wasn't quick to turn, I agree. There was nothing wrong with him being 'quick' to turn like that. Anyone with a sense of right and wrong would at least have seen what he was being told to do was wrong, and Jake seems to me someone who wouldn't stand for that. I don't know for sure, though, I really wasn't paying attention to the movie.









My impression of Avatar was that it was a good movie. Not creative, no. But good. Making something doesn't have to be completely creative. You can instead take an old idea and do it REALLY WELL. It wasn't the first film like that, it wasn't the LAST film like that. But it wasn't as bad as people seem to think just because it was like that.

Its like going to see a play. I don't go to see a production of Hamlet expecting a plot twist. I just go into it expecting to see what I know played out skillfully. And that is what Avatar gave me. A skillfully played out version of a story I already knew.




Edit: Thank you, Smiley, for creating a DADT thread, I am copypasting

[AdminAssistant]

Its like going to see a play. I don't go to see a production of Hamlet expecting a plot twist. I just go into it expecting to see what I know played out skillfully. And that is what Avatar gave me. A skillfully played out version of a story I already knew.

I go to Hamlet expecting to see fine acting and a skillful handling of language. I go to films like Avatar expecting mediocre acting, laughable dialogue, and lots of pretty things. They are NOT similar in any way, shape, form, or fashion.

FTR, there are plenty of plays/musicals like Avatar that can be found on Broadway (*coughWickedcoughPhantomcough*).

[Hyena Dandy]

I go to Hamlet expecting to see fine acting and a skillful handling of language. I go to films like Avatar expecting mediocre acting, laughable dialogue, and lots of pretty things. They are NOT similar in any way, shape, form, or fashion.

FTR, there are plenty of plays/musicals like Avatar that can be found on Broadway (*coughWickedcoughPhantomcough*).

You misinterpret me!

I do not go to Avatar expecting the same quality of work as Hamlet. My analogy was that, in both of them, I know exactly what to expect, and I am not hoping to see something new, I am hoping to see something old done well.

Edit: I do not know whether Avatar accomplished doing something completely expected well, because I haven't payed attention to it. But I certainly wasn't going into it expecting CREATIVITY.

[jackfaire]

Quick question people realize that it wasn't his Country on that planet right? It was a corporation that contracted the US Military to act as mercenaries for them. It was clearly a private corporation as well since they had no government oversight to which both the scientists and the corporation had to answer. The soldiers serving there were doing so as mercenaries not as representatives of their government.

Betraying your country yes that might be difficult but betraying a corporation seriously how many of us wouldn't do that in a heartbeat?

That being said he wasn't brought there by the corporation he was brought there by the scientific consortium studying life on Pandora. Yes said consortium was funded by the corporation but that was as a feel good, "Hey look we care" ploy to get people to look the other way at what they were doing there.

[BlaqueKatt]

Can you please provide citation for your claim about the concentration camps? The only ones I find point to the German government, and not the US, as the ones who did that.

we had at least 10 of them on US soil holding US citizens

not too up on your US history are you specifically Executive order 9066-

some 120,003 ethnic Japanese people were held in internment camps for the duration of the war. Americans of Italian and German ancestry were also targeted by these restrictions, including internment. 11,000 people of German ancestry were interned, as were 3,000 people of Italian ancestry, along with some Jewish refugees. The Jewish refugees who were interned came from Germany, and the U.S. government didn't differentiate between ethnic Jews and ethnic Germans. Some of the internees of European descent were interned only briefly, and others were held for several years beyond the end of the war.

[Hobbs]

we had at least 10 of them on US soil holding US citizens

not too up on your US history are you specifically Executive order 9066-

some 120,003 ethnic Japanese people were held in internment camps for the duration of the war. Americans of Italian and German ancestry were also targeted by these restrictions, including internment. 11,000 people of German ancestry were interned, as were 3,000 people of Italian ancestry, along with some Jewish refugees. The Jewish refugees who were interned came from Germany, and the U.S. government didn't differentiate between ethnic Jews and ethnic Germans. Some of the internees of European descent were interned only briefly, and others were held for several years beyond the end of the war.

We're not talking about the Japanese/German internment camps. Please re-read our posts in order to understand what we are discussing. Thank you.

[Racket_Man]

back on topic for a moment

While I loved the visuals in Avatar, it just seemed to be more of a message type of movie with a weak script questionable acting and a really cheesey predicable progression of situations/plot points. I can tell you the overall story line (used many many times over in Hollywood) but nothing else except

**** oh shinny thing *****

**** oh another shinny thing *****

and so on

I did some digging and I found a thread I posted over at CS 2 years ago saying the same thing about Happy Feet and Wall-E

http://www.customerssuck.com/board/s...ghlight=wall-e

Now I hear that Happy Feet 2 is going to be released sometime this summer. what will this version be like?