Pet Peeve: Confederate Flag

[Arcade Man D]

I got a few slavery comments, but I was always told the civil war wasnt about slavery and both sides had slaves

Actually, the main reason that it wasn't initially about slavery (and was more about state's rights and whether the Union was dissoluble or indissoluble) was bare political realities. At the time of the CSA's attempted secession, there were five "border states" that could have swayed either way, and ended up siding with the Union despite still holding slaves. Missouri, Kentucky, Delaware, West Virginia (the northwestern counties of Virginia which had opposed secession from the Union, while still having slave laws in place) were four of them. Had any (or even all) of those four states seceded, the Union would have been in a harder place, but probably would have still come out all right. However, the fifth one was Maryland, and had Maryland seceded (which would have happened had the Civil War been explicitly about slavery), Washington, DC, would have been completely surrounded by the CSA, and the Civil War would have ended very differently.

However, in 1863, the Emancipation Proclamation did make the war about slavery, as it emancipated all slaves in rebelling territories, which meant that as they were retaken, slaves there would be freed. However, this also didn't affect the border states as, again, Maryland would likely have seceded had that happened. In 1864, after 3 of the border states had abolished slavery (including Maryland), then the war truly became about ending slavery, as only 2 Union states remained where slavery was still legal, which was swiftly ended after the 13th Amendment was ratified (ratification of which was required for formal readmittance of rebelling states to full statehood in the Union).

In fact, thanks to the Emancipation Proclamation, by the time the 13th Amendment was ratified, it only freed 66,818 slaves (65,000 in Kentucky, 1,800 in Delaware, and 18 in New Jersey), and served the primary purpose of forever barring slavery instead of emancipating slaves (though it did so by the barring).

tl;dr version: The reason slavery being abolished was not an initial reason for the Civil War was that if it had been, tactically important states would have seceded as well (especially Kentucky and Maryland), and occasionally, doing the right thing has to be kept on the back-burner in order for it to be done.

[draggar]

You learn something new every day. I didn't know it was a battle flag (but I don't fly it anyways, I prefer ole' Gadsden anyway).

You see a lot of those in (the real) south Florida.

One thing the civil war did was make the USA look like one country to the rest of the world.

Before - they said "The United States are".
After - they said "The United States is".

[Bloodsoul]

Part of me thinks flying it is to show pride in the South, the other part of me thinks it's done as an act of rebellion and defiance.

[Lachrymose]

I'd say it's usually both at the same time. But not always.

[mikoyan29]

I'm a northerner and I am decidedly in the blue camp. However, I don't believe the South has exclusivity to racism. In fact, I think I remember reading that some of the largest groups of the KKK are in my neck of the woods. As for people that put that flag on their pick up trucks, I'm glad for it because it flags the people that I don't want a part of. And this may be a stereotype but it seems like only idiots do that.

As for the reasons of the Civil War, I thought it had more to do with tariffs than slavery anyways. If I recall, the South was in favor of them because they were at a disadvantage to cheap cotton from India or the Caribbean (hmmm...sounds familiar) and the Northern industrialists wanted to get cotton from wherever without tariffs. Or maybe it was the other way around, the Northern industrialists wanted them and the South wanted to be able to buy stuff from wherever. But regarding the Northern industrialists, in many ways they were far more cruel towards their workers than the South was towards its slaves.

[IDrinkaRum]

It really was more of the "What does this mean if we allow the South to break away from the rest of the U.S.ofA.?"

Here we were, a nation, barely 100 years old and already, we're breaking up? It would have showed the weaknesses of Democracy, and freedom, and allowed other nations to think we were weak.

Another reason why Slavey wasn't mentioned until later was because England was going to side with the South and offer aid to them instead of the North. If this had happened, the South would definitely have won and therefore we would still have the Confederate States of America still. However, since England was against slavery (1772 - Somerset case enslaved peoples held in England couldn't be forcibly removed back to the West Indies) and since the Southern states (because they were no longer listening to the President of the United States of America) didn't release their slaves like they were commanded to by President Lincoln, they lost the support of England.

Yes, slavery was a hot issue for the South. Not because they didn't want to end slavery (some people might have). But it was more a case of "states' rights" and what the federal government could and couldn't tell them to do.

[blas87]

America wasn't the first land to use slaves. This may be kind of out there and random, but I always love the fact that at one time, rich black people had poor black slaves, and there is still hatred to this day of whitie for once having slaves.

I just wish the Confederate flag could be done away with. It's a part of history that is full of hatred and ignorance. And like I mentioned before, it's been geez....140 years? Get over it people.

[Gawdzillers]

It's to honor the Confederate soldiers. Same reason that everybody wore "I <3 New York" stuff after 9/11, to honor the fallen.

I wish you Yankees would pull your heads out of your asses and stop thinking we're all a bunch of racist, uneducated NASCAR junkies.

[blas87]

First of all, I'm proud of who I am and where I come from.

Second of all, it's on the same level as people who still have flags with Swastikas on them, or people who still do "Sieg Heil!" to hail Hitler.

I do not have my head up my ass and I don't think you are all backwoods inbreeds who love Nascar. You came up with that yourself. I think it's about damn time Southerners got over something that happened well over 100some years ago and they LOST.

Like it or not, the United States of America is every state in this nation, not a seperate section of southern states. The South will not rise again, sorry to inform anyone who may think so. Pride? Respect? Honor? Whatever. That's nothing to be proud of.

[Tanasi]

I'm a northerner and I am decidedly in the blue camp. However, I don't believe the South has exclusivity to racism. In fact, I think I remember reading that some of the largest groups of the KKK are in my neck of the woods. As for people that put that flag on their pick up trucks, I'm glad for it because it flags the people that I don't want a part of. And this may be a stereotype but it seems like only idiots do that.

As for the reasons of the Civil War, I thought it had more to do with tariffs than slavery anyways. If I recall, the South was in favor of them because they were at a disadvantage to cheap cotton from India or the Caribbean (hmmm...sounds familiar) and the Northern industrialists wanted to get cotton from wherever without tariffs. Or maybe it was the other way around, the Northern industrialists wanted them and the South wanted to be able to buy stuff from wherever. But regarding the Northern industrialists, in many ways they were far more cruel towards their workers than the South was towards its slaves.

During it's height the Klan had more presence in the north and down south and especially so in Indiana. A few years ago a young white couple were brutally murdered by some black folks. The DA didn't charge the black folks with hate crime because he said they weren't motivated by race just greed. To an extend that was true but the whole truth was never revealed. The Klan can to town on two different occassions to protest. All of the Klansman were yankees. The vast majority of the counter-protestors were local white folks.

Part of reason for the War of Northern Agression is: The norther industry wanted southern cotton. Britian wanted southern cotton. Britian was willing to pay more for the cotton than the yankees. The yankees being butt-hurt proposed to tariffs/duties on the cotton to make it cost prohibitive for the south to sell to the British. The yankee had the political might to do in the house but not in the senate as is was evenly divided north/south. With the proposed admittance of more slavefree states the south would also loose in the senate. So with the election of Lincoln most of the southern states seceeded while James Buchanon was still president. Buchanon adminstration had promised to remove all US troops from the seceeded states. Lincoln was sworn in as president and reniged on the deal. Hence PTG Beauregard fired on Ft. Sumpter (without orders) and "started" the whole mess.

The first flag in the op is the Third National Flag or the last official of the Confederate States of America. The second flag is the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. Most of the other Confederate armies flew the Bonnie Blue flag. Battle flags were used to identify units on the battle field. At first the CSA also flew the US flag as they also considered themselves Americans. It wasn't until the war actually started did "official" flags get started as both sides flying the same flag would lead to confusion by the commanders.

Someone earlier said the Confederacy didn't have a draft. Actually they did/didn't it was called conscription then but in effect it is the same thing.

Note: I don't claim to be anykind of scholar/expert/knowitall about the War of Northern Aggression I've just claim to have read a fair bit.

[Ipecac Drano]

As a black friend once told me, he sees the Confederate flag as Jewish people see a Nazi flag.

As far as I'm concerned: the South lost. Get over it.

[guywithashovel]

Some people have grumbled about southerners dealing with bad stereotypes. To that I say, welcome to the club. People from most parts of the country/world have to deal with bad stereotypes. New Yorkers get stereotyped as being pushy, rude, and impatient. Californians get stereotyped as being a bunch of ultra liberal hippie surfers. Canadians get stereotyped as Eskimos who live in igloos and end every sentence with "eh." The list goes on.

Heck, people joke about the weather here in Ohio all the time, and I don't get upset over it. Most of the jokes are gross exaggerations, too, and still, I don't get hurt over them. Here are a few examples:

1. You know you're from Ohio if you use your car's heater and air conditioner in the same day.

2. If you don't like the weather in Ohio, just wait two minutes.

The first statement is only true in the spring and fall. The second statement is hardly ever true. I mean, we DO get sudden weather changes, but not that often. Yet, I don't get irked at either of these jokes, and neither do most other Ohioians. Also, when I was in college, I had a classmate from West Virginia who was often cracking West Virginia jokes like:

Q. How do you get a one-armed West Virginia man out of a tree?
A. Wave at him.

Q. How do you kill an entire West Virginia family?
A. Give one of them AIDS.

Yet, if you make any of these types of jokes about the South, southerners get their feelings hurt.

[Ipecac Drano]

My fave: "If a WV man divorces his wife, are they still brother and sister?"

[Boozy]

Yet, I don't get irked at either of these jokes, and neither do most other Ohioians.

In fairness, that's because those jokes are about the weather in your area, not the supposed stupidity or in-breeding of everyone who lives there. Apples and oranges.

But I do think people need to relax a bit. I like to make stereotype-based jokes about the Southern US -- and also New England, California, New Jersey, Quebec, the Maritimes, my own hometown, and my own entire country. These are all relatively privileged groups with some geo-political power, so I think a little ribbing is fine, and we should all be able to handle it.

[Tanasi]

As a black friend once told me, he sees the Confederate flag as Jewish people see a Nazi flag.

As far as I'm concerned: the South lost. Get over it.

Does your black friend have the same feelings when he sees the American Flag??? If not then he's being inconsistant.

The south lost the war, so what, leave us alone. I've yet to see or hear the first southern person go north and tell the yankees how things are done back home, yet I hear at least one yankee a week tell me how things are better back home.