Who shalle celebrate with me....

[Boozy]

I am trying to understand why the OPs view this as the best place for discussions of this nature. I apologize if I made that unclear or conveyed a different meaning.

No apologies necessary. I am the one who should have clarified that I completely understand what you were saying, and I definitely recognize that you are new.

You are right when you say that Fratching is primarily a forum for debate. With that said, it can be difficult to know exactly what will constitute a debate. As a result, we tend to be fairly easy-going around here.

Even if the subject is not necessarily contentious, it could be disturbing or bothersome to some people, and is better here than on CS.com. A good example of this are the threads we have here about man's inhumanity to man. When a link is posted about a girl getting beaten to death for how she looks, it is highly unlikely that someone will chime in with a defense of her murderers. These threads don't see much arguing, just a lot of "Yeah, that's awful." But its nevertheless fairly heavy subject matter, and is probably better suited for Fratching than CS.com.

The idea of "waiting for a girl to become legal" is definitely contentious. I think the OP's wording left a little to be desired; it was perhaps too glib and cavalier. (We usually encourage the OP to add their opinion in situations like this, so members know what issue to debate. That was simply an oversight on our part.) But as we've seen, the underlying issue is one that is worth some discussion.

Hope that helps clarify things.

[ThePhoneGoddess]

The fact that men are biologically inclined to screw every woman they see only increases my respect for them. Because while some men act on these urges, most men don't. Most men do set aside their base urges and get to know women before sleeping with them. They have self-control the likes of which I'll never quite understand.

I really liked this point. I have observed the same thing among men. Self-control is a big part of 'male' culture; same reason they don't cry or show other strong emotions in public.

I think that's the difference between the average decent guy and the 'creeps' you hear about sometimes on CS. A decent guy will discreetly check out a girl, even a young looking one, because it's natural for them to do so. I know I've been looked at by men who were old enough to be my father some times; but they were discreet about it and did not do anything that made me uncomfortable. I guess I don't see the problem with it because I see it as a natural, biological thing for them to do.

A creep doesn't care about being discreet, and he doesn't care about exercising his self-control. He may get off on making the person uncomfortable, or they may have such an ego they can't understand why a teenage girl wouldn't be interested in a 50 year old man with a giant beer gut. They may think that they have the right to leer because a female with makeup and a nice outfit on 'deserves it'. Who knows.

[DarthRetard]

Again, anriana is out to crucify me. You're the one making me a martyr here, not me. Look, when I said the line about being a perv, take it as a bit of sarcasm and with a grain of salt.

If you don't like the topic, don't discuss it then. I don't care how disinterested you are.

My whole point of this thread, and I guess this lies at my feet for fault, was simply this: I don't feel like a pervert now that Emma Watson isn't considered a child in a cultural fashion, and I won't feel bad going to a movie and saying, "Hey, she's really pretty, and I'd totally hit that." I'm 19. You show me a 19 year old guy that hasn't ONCE said "I'd hit that" or something of that nature, and I'll show you a human that can reproduce asexually through spores in the air.

Sometimes I don't like the way my mind works, and I try to re-work it. It's not easy, it's really not. I don't, and never will, enter a bar for the simple goal of banging a girl. It's not right, and it's disrespectful. I see sex as a means of reproduction and a display of the most intimate affection.

I just don't see what I'm supposed to be defending myself against? So here's my ultimatum:

I think Emma Watson is beautiful. She's a great actress, and I'm attracted to her, and I was while she was younger. At least now it's an acceptable thought, and I feel relieved. I wanted to see who else thought Emma Watson was beautiful and was happy it's not a frowned upon sin to think about her that way.

[Seshat]

I think Emma Watson is beautiful. She's a great actress, and I'm attracted to her, and I was while she was younger. At least now it's an acceptable thought, and I feel relieved. I wanted to see who else thought Emma Watson was beautiful.

The problem is in how you said it. What you've said above might be what you meant, but what you actually said came across very differently.

I think, from reading this thread, you now know how your actual phrasing was understood.

and was happy it's not a frowned upon sin to think about her that way.

That's trickier.

I think it's a bit like masturbation or making out. I don't much care that people do it, I think it's healthy that people do it. But unless I'm actually at an orgy, I don't want to see it.

The good part about the whole 'I'd hit that' thing, is that if you're just talking among your friends, those who don't want to see it don't have to - even if you're in the same room.

[DarthRetard]

Well, I can say this, it wasn't really meant to be an inflammatory thread, but I'm glad I made it, there's some interesting viewpoints on here, and I will try to be more conscious of how I describe my thoughts to people, in order to avoid the confusion.

[anriana]

Again, anriana is out to crucify me.

I'd reply to the rest of your post but you seem to have issues with people disagreeing with you.

[Slytovhand]

Seshat:

...regardless of how that someone else feels about it.

Ummm.. I'm a little ...'confused'.

If someone doesn't know something, then would you still have a problem with it? This would get into the really seriously interesting side of philosophy..

Let's just say, very hypothetically, that I'm walking down the street and see someone who I find very sexually attractive (adding the 's' word cos I can also see people in other ways... 4 in fact). On the basis of the physical alone, I (or perhaps better - the chemicals in this body that I currently inhabit) decide that she would make a good mate for the purposes of offspring to keep the human population going.... Of course, what really happens is that the imagination starts to go into overtime about what I would like to do...

Humans (unfortunately, my body is one) isn't completely happy with just 'imagining' alone, and wants a physical release..(aka masturbation).

Is that a 'bad' thing (yep..ethics here). Even if she has noticed my look (which would probably be 'admiring' and possibly 'lustful' - as per above). If she looks at me and thinks "eew yuck, he's gross" (and a fairly natural response too, I might suggest ), does that mean that I 'shouldn't ' go ahead that night? Because she may not feel ok about that? If, in her mind, I'm repulsive (for whatever reason), does that mean I have to alter my mind? Let alone control my urges or fantasies?



Or is the argument merely limited to expressing that desire/act? The objectification of...well, anything really... is a going to be a long and potentially interesting debate. If we kept to philosophy rather than emotions, we could see some very interesting arguments made

Back to TPG and Boozy... what about sexually confident people? They tend not to come across as 'sleazy', nor as creeps, nor as being totally interested in a woman for her mind, soul, emotions, etc? They go into a bar, find someone they are interested in, do what they can to have sex with them, and then leave. It's not just the men who do this. Other than our own particular 'morals' regarding this, is it a problem? And what if someone came on this forum and expressed this?

I am curious that this thread was started in here, though. Not what has come of it, but just the original thought behind it. I've seen far 'worse' over in CS that stayed there.


And lastly - Arenaboy..you Chelsea lot are just plain weird!


Oh - and really lastly - if any or all of this doesn't make sense, I'm fighting a head cold

Slyt

[Seshat]

Even if she has noticed my look (which would probably be 'admiring' and possibly 'lustful' - as per above). If she looks at me and thinks "eew yuck, he's gross" (and a fairly natural response too, I might suggest ), does that mean that I 'shouldn't ' go ahead that night? Because she may not feel ok about that?

What happens in your mind and stays in your mind is your business. Do what you want with it. If, however, you draw another person into a sexual activity without their consent, that's crossing the line.

Fantasising about them while you masturbate isn't drawing them into your sexual activity. Letting them know that you intend to, or that you have - that crosses the line.

Letting a third party know that you intend to/have masturbated about another person may or may be crossing the line. It depends on the third party, really. A bunch of people staring at a picture of an actor that none of them will ever meet? Pretty much harmless.

I think you can all make up the not-harmless cases.

As for the look itself: sometimes all it takes is a look to make me feel slimy all over. It really depends on the look.
(Not the look-er, as much as the look. I've had people who most folks would call 'creepy' be just fine, and handsome young men who've made me feel awful just by looking at me. It really is the look.)

Or is the argument merely limited to expressing that desire/act?

Hopefully I've just explained. If not, feel free to ask.

Back to TPG and Boozy... what about sexually confident people? They tend not to come across as 'sleazy', nor as creeps, nor as being totally interested in a woman for her mind, soul, emotions, etc?

Some can come across as sleazy or creepy. Some just have a strangeness about them. Some seem perfectly normal. I've never figured out what makes the differences there.

They go into a bar, find someone they are interested in, do what they can to have sex with them, and then leave. It's not just the men who do this. Other than our own particular 'morals' regarding this, is it a problem?

So long as all involved are consenting adults, it's not the business of anyone else. If misrepresentations are made, I would consider it unethical.

If a person who has promised monogamy (or closed polyfidelity) to another (or others) goes out and has sex outside his or her closed circle, that's unethical.

If a person claims to be free of STDs and knows they're not, that's unethical.

If a person claims to be on the pill/have an IUD/be snipped/otherwise be taking care of contraception, and they're not, that's unethical.

If a person purports to be seeking a relationship and actually only wants a one night stand - or vice versa - that's unethical.

But honestly represented sex among consenting, mature partners? Perfectly fine, perfectly ethical, and none of my business.

And what if someone came on this forum and expressed this?

If it was in the context of a debate, it's fine.

If it was completely random and in no way related to anything this forum is about, it would be as wrong as .. say .. me coming on this forum and rhapsodising about the dark chocolate I'm eating. Only it would also cross the TMI taboo, which chocolate generally doesn't. But both posts would be out of place.

[DarthRetard]

I'd reply to the rest of your post but you seem to have issues with people disagreeing with you.

Ah, that statement seems to have been misinterpreted again, because I fail to remind myself how few people on here know my sarcastic sense of humor. I do apologise if that came off at snarky/abrasive.

I merely meant that you seem to be targeting my ethical.....motives, let's say, when you merely can't read my mind or understand how I feel about women. that's all.

[Slytovhand]

Letting a third party know that you intend to/have masturbated about another person may or may be crossing the line. It depends on the third party, really. A bunch of people staring at a picture of an actor that none of them will ever meet? Pretty much harmless.

Which brings us back to the OP. Was it, in your opinion (and anyone else following our little tete-a-tete here), crossing the line for Darth to post it? It sort of combines 2 of the things you just mentioned - unfortunately at either ends of the spectrum (ie - telling 3rd parties, but about a picture/movie).

As for the look itself: sometimes all it takes is a look to make me feel slimy all over. It really depends on the look.
(Not the look-er, as much as the look. I've had people who most folks would call 'creepy' be just fine, and handsome young men who've made me feel awful just by looking at me. It really is the look.)

<snip>

Some can come across as sleazy or creepy. Some just have a strangeness about them. Some seem perfectly normal. I've never figured out what makes the differences there.

Please allow me to enlighten

I was brought up in a socially unhealthy environment. No - not the abusive stuff (not serious, any rate). But the only continuous female contact I had for the first...oh 15 or more years of my life, was from a sister who hated me, and a mother who wasn't happy at all with her life. There was a neighbour across the road, but she was fairly religious. My parents had other issues. I went to an all boys high school. All of that led me to having a crap 'others-esteem' when it comes to women (and yes, that's in the present tense ). Which, ... can come off as sleazy or creepy. I never really learned to be completely myself with females, and in particular, ones I am attracted to.

So...I would think that anyone who creeps someone out, or you see as sleazy is someone who came from a maladjusted background - in all its many glorious and colourful varieties.

If it was completely random and in no way related to anything this forum is about, it would be as wrong as .. say .. me coming on this forum and rhapsodising about the dark chocolate I'm eating. Only it would also cross the TMI taboo, which chocolate generally doesn't. But both posts would be out of place.

Dark??? Oh no!! Now there's a whole new debate thread.....

BE Happy

[Seshat]

Which brings us back to the OP. Was it, in your opinion (and anyone else following our little tete-a-tete here), crossing the line for Darth to post it? It sort of combines 2 of the things you just mentioned - unfortunately at either ends of the spectrum (ie - telling 3rd parties, but about a picture/movie).

Hm.

I think it's crossing a different line, actually. This is the TMI line.

It's much like I don't tell the world that I like to wear a bunny suit and sing the Hallelujah chorus during sex while my husband waves it like a conductor's baton. (Okay, so I made that up. Yes, all of it. Honest.)

Please allow me to enlighten

<snip>

So...I would think that anyone who creeps someone out, or you see as sleazy is someone who came from a maladjusted background - in all its many glorious and colourful varieties.

I disagree. There's a big difference between socially awkward and sleazy. Sure, some socially awkward or maladjusted people are also sleazy, either intentionally or accidentally. But some sleazy people are just plain sleazy.

However, I also contend that for each individual man, sorting out their own social awkwardness around women is the most effective way to solve it. The alternative is to fix the rest of the culture. And you can look at the history of any major social movement to see how much concentrated effort, by how many people, it takes to fix a culture.

Yes, it sucks that you were raised poorly and have to deal with the results of that now. Yes, you have my sympathy for it. But the way to sort it out is to actually do the bloody hard work of sorting it out.

If you want advice on how to sort it out, by the way, feel free to PM me or some other person who seems willing and sympathetic. Or start a thread asking for advice.

[Slytovhand]

Hm.

I think it's crossing a different line, actually. This is the TMI line.

It's much like I don't tell the world that I like to wear a bunny suit and sing the Hallelujah chorus during sex while my husband waves it like a conductor's baton. (Okay, so I made that up. Yes, all of it. Honest.)

Uh-huh....sure.....

Actually - looking at the very OP, it was just alluded to ... weirdly. Weird enough for me to be thinking that hell had frozen over for some reason.. It was sometime after the OP that it started to really get ... sleazy...

I disagree. There's a big difference between socially awkward and sleazy. Sure, some socially awkward or maladjusted people are also sleazy, either intentionally or accidentally. But some sleazy people are just plain sleazy.

True... but it still probably comes from a 'bad' upbringing. Look at all the CS threads on them...especially face to face (I just read the one about the puke in the shopping cart..ewwwww)

However, I also contend that for each individual man, sorting out their own social awkwardness around women is the most effective way to solve it. The alternative is to fix the rest of the culture. And you can look at the history of any major social movement to see how much concentrated effort, by how many people, it takes to fix a culture.

Yes, it sucks that you were raised poorly and have to deal with the results of that now. Yes, you have my sympathy for it. But the way to sort it out is to actually do the bloody hard work of sorting it out.

If you want advice on how to sort it out, by the way, feel free to PM me or some other person who seems willing and sympathetic. Or start a thread asking for advice.

thanks... but meh. I'm sort of over the whole idea now (he says, probably trying to convince himself )

[Greenday]

The alternative is to fix the rest of the culture. And you can look at the history of any major social movement to see how much concentrated effort, by how many people, it takes to fix a culture.

And you have now summed up my thesis for my Politics of Diversity paper. I have a page done already. Want to write the other six pages?

[Seshat]

And you have now summed up my thesis for my Politics of Diversity paper. I have a page done already. Want to write the other six pages?

I probably have, over the course of my life.

(Go check out the story of 'Frank Fullblood', for part of your thesis.)

[Greenday]

I probably have, over the course of my life.

(Go check out the story of 'Frank Fullblood', for part of your thesis.)

Too late. Paper was due today at 10:30am. You can check it out under the literature forum on CS.