"His midichlorians were off the scale"

[jackfaire]

Say what you will about Star Wars. The Force originally being a mystical power and not one based in Science makes the original Series fantasy not Science Fiction.

That is not what this about though not entirely. How do you feel if your fantasy series starts including science fiction elements or vice versa.

Whether video game, movie, TV show etc. You pop it in there is the castle and our familiar hero and a little while later he is sword fighting in a robotics factory. Your sitting there thinking, "The technology level of this world is Medieval Europe and he is fighting robots while talking to an AI uhm wha huh?"

What are your feelings when a beloved property jumps the shark like that?

[Gravekeeper]

What are your feelings when a beloved property jumps the shark like that?

Universally my reaction is pretty always bad. As is, I think, the reaction in general. Unless a genre hop is a plot twist or surprise ending ( and even then ) typically speaking the reaction to changing genres is always bad. Because people tend to use genre as a gauge of whether or not they'll like something. If you change it on them suddenly, changes are they're resent it rather than applaud your "creativity".

The horror of the Star Wars prequels is a great example of course. Demystifying the Force was one of the biggest possible mistakes numbnuts, er, Lucas could have made. But you can see similar backlashs elsewhere. Battlestar Galactica for example caught a lot of backlash for the increase in mysticism towards the end of the show. Heck, Supernatural's sudden turn into the Bible Boys: Revelations is another good one. I remember groaning audible when it started and was already cold on the lead up too it ( Emo Sam ). It ended up being handled pretty terribly too and I haven't watched any further past the Bible Boys arc. If it wasn't for the actors themselves, I'd have ditched the show completely the moment it started.

Fact of the matter is you can't change gears halfway through a story and expect all of the people following the story to be totally cool with it.

[SongsOfDragons]

I know a book series called the Edge Chronicles ventured from the Age of Awesome Piracy and Evil Guildmasters into Pioneers with Guns that use the Ancient mystic McGuffin powder as a fuel souce for the last book The Immortals. I haven't read it yet, but I'm quite intruiged.

I also liked the backstory of what they did for the transition between 3.5 and 4th ed for Forgotten Realms, though AFAIK (I never got into 3.5) little of it was technology.

I think one has to get the balance right. If the story is heavily setting-based, you don't always want to fall into the trap of Medieval Stasis so some technology development might be beneficial. Perhaps jumping from the waterwheel to walking robots smushes the willing suspension of disbelief, but jumping from waterwheel to...say, Spinning Jenny? Not sure. The next logical progression in the evolution of that tech anyway. - would be better.

[Canarr]

To quote Full Frontal Nerdity: "You got your crappy Sci-Fi all over my Fantasy!"

[lordlundar]

Say what you will about Star Wars. The Force originally being a mystical power and not one based in Science makes the original Series fantasy not Science Fiction.

That would be why it's been referred as a Space Opera.

Let me explain: There's two types of situations that get labelled as Sci-fi:

-Proper Sci-fi explains the background of everything and all the incredible stuff has some bearing in reality which can be understood and realized. Examples are Star Trek and the Stargate group of series/movies.

- Space Operas don't go into the explanation. It has a lot of stuff that either is not explained or given a minor reference because it interferes with the flow of the setting. Star Wars and Babylon 5 are prime examples of that.

That's not to say there isn't some cross over. Sometimes stuff is left out in proper Sci-fi (usually because it's a "well DUH" moment) and stuff gets explained in a Space Opera (usually because it just makes no sense otherwise) but the vast majority of situations maintain the status quo.

The real problem wasn't the "fantasy elements in Sci-fi" that you think it was, it was that Lucas tried to switch from a Space Opera to a proper Sci-fi where it wasn't needed and bungled it up completely.

[DrFaroohk]

Supernatural's sudden turn into the Bible Boys: Revelations is another good one. I remember groaning audible when it started and was already cold on the lead up too it ( Emo Sam ). It ended up being handled pretty terribly too and I haven't watched any further past the Bible Boys arc. If it wasn't for the actors themselves, I'd have ditched the show completely the moment it started.

I don't get what you mean here. Are you talking about seasons 3-5 where it was apocalypse themed stuff? Cuz that was the way the show was going anyway. Kripke had it pretty well planned out, only changing the tail end of season 5 to accomodate continuing the show.

Unless you're talking season 6 and 7 stuff, which does get a little bit lame. But Supernatural's lame is still better than most of the crap on TV so I deal.

[Kheldarson]

I think it really depends on how well the writers deal with the shark jump that determines the answer. Case in point: Dragonriders of Pern.

Most of the books and story are very much fantasy. However, like Darkover, the base is sci-fi. However, since only the first book and the world-building book really talk about the sci-fi elements, when you get to the All the Weyrs of Pern and Skies of Pern, having the computer there and the sudden Industrial Revolution seems kind of...odd. But doesn't make you groan because she did build up to it in bits and pieces throughout. Which is the big thing. Foreshadowing the shark jump usually helps.

[HYHYBT]

The problem isn't including elements of different genres, but throwing them in midstream when they don't fit with what's already done.

[Andara Bledin]

I think it really depends on how well the writers deal with the shark jump that determines the answer. Case in point: Dragonriders of Pern.

Dragonriders of Pern was planned, from the beginning, to be what it was. That's why it isn't terrible when it gets there. Because all of the support is there, in the stories, it's just hard to notice if you don't know about it beforehand.

But if you don't build in the foundation from the get-go, and then do a switch halfway through, it's going to be hollow and generally will suck.

I've had some of my stories switch genres partway through, and when that happens, I have to go back through the entire thing to make sure there aren't any contradictions, and add in proper foundation points where they're appropriate or it just doesn't work right. It's a pain, but anyone with any pride in their work is going to do the same.

^-.-^

[Gravekeeper]

I don't get what you mean here. Are you talking about seasons 3-5 where it was apocalypse themed stuff? Cuz that was the way the show was going anyway. Kripke had it pretty well planned out, only changing the tail end of season 5 to accomodate continuing the show.

It really didn't seem to fit the rest of the show frankly and while it had a few interesting ideas, ultimately it was badly executed and he wrote himself into a story he would never have the budget to actually pull off properly. While simultaneously offending 7 or 8 different religions by shitting directly on top of them ( "Hammer of the Gods" >< ) with his stunning ignorance. He tried to do it seriously but kept falling into campiness and he never gave/had enough time to actually make the subplots work. It all felt rushed and the tone was all over the place.

The thing that makes Supernatural great is Sam and Dean. When you separate them ( again and again and again ) for melodramatic emo reasons or suppress/avoid the shows humourous side ( or put it out there but try to portray it seriously ), it kills the best thing the show has going for it.

But yeah, its still better than most crap on TV I'll give it that. But that's specifically because of Jared and Jenson.

[DrFaroohk]

because of Jared and Jenson.

Definitely. I've read reviews that say they are bad actors, but I don't see it. I've always thought they were great actors.

Many characters on TV shows come off as "false". I see him there preaching about something, but I don't believe it. Sounds like he's lying. I rarely get that from J2.

[firecat88]

The problem isn't including elements of different genres, but throwing them in midstream when they don't fit with what's already done.

This. To quote something that was said on an episode of Phineas and Ferb (yes, I like that show): "You can't just throw in a giant monster because you're stuck for ideas. That's lazy. It's lazy writing."

I think it's fine if you want to cross genres. It can be done successfully if you find the right balance between the genres you're combining. Throwing something in randomly for the sake of 'Hey! Wouldn't it be cool if *insert improbable scenario would happen here* even though *canon-established reasons why it would just be weird and stupid*?' just bothers me.

If you didn't establish early on that the technology for plasma rifles could exist in the story or if you did establish that animals don't talk in the world that the story takes place in, don't freakin' change your own rules halfway through the story.

[Ginger Tea]

Middle ages / pre industrial revolution worlds with high tech can work if done well.
Planet earth case in point, when we discovered America we were far more advanced than those living there (Mayan conspirisorys notwithstanding).
One continent could be far more advanced than the local protagonists country and could be invading or just exploring with their flying machines.

What if V was not set in the 80's but in the 1780's, I like reading alternate/elseworlds graphic novels of normal comic book characters set in another time or place, not time travel shtick, but Peter Parker bitten by a (not radioactive but explainable to the reader) spider and gains his powers, or no powers at all, just the look of the suit and inteligence ala batman.

I remember very little of it now, but AMTRAC wars had a post apocolypse America revert to tribes, yet we also had the bunkered Military with technology.
China or Japan had reverted to their frudal era was and were trading with the tribes (or at war again I forget).

[jackfaire]

*nods* For me what started this thread is that a series of video games was all heavily Medieval European. It's another world but that was the major influence. They always had some level of technology but the kind of thing that could theoretically fit into that time period.

The latest game added in things that take the "goddesses" who have always been said to have created this world and seriously give rise to the question, "Given the level of advanced technology could they have been aliens?" One of the characters missions takes place in an ancient robotics factory.

[Kheldarson]

Are you talking Skyward? See, they set that one up in the game itself. The Timeshift Stones meant it was a one-off for the game (why we never see them again), but the explanation was that it was from eons ago. So all of this existed and was destroyed by the wars. And never recovered, obviously.