Why does race matter?

[Hyena Dandy]

For someone claiming to not be defending the poor writing, you're doing nothing but defending the poor writing.

Well, no, he's defending it against specific accusations.

Like if someone accused Too Human of being too grotesquely violent. I'm not defending it if I say "It's not grotesquely violent." It's still a terrible game, but that doesn't mean that all criticisms of it are true.

I'm not sure about what you're saying about Twilight so I'll have to reread the thread, but there is a difference between "Defending bad writing" and "Denying a specific critique."

[crashhelmet]

But poorly written is the entire problem with Twilight vampires. Writing something thats super awesome invincable in every concievable way is boring and poor writing. No one gives a shit about people coming up with new kinds of vampires or werewolves or whatever. But when you change or remove everything that identifies it as a vampire to begin with, including the downsides, then you're a shitty writer.

Again, the problem isn't inventing new kinds of vampires, its doing a shitty job of it.

But they're not invincible. Vampires die in every book. Hell, there's a huge battle in one of them. Stories of other wars throughout the books.

No, they don't need blood to live. It gives them power and keeps their brains sharp or something. But they don't *need* it.

Yes, they do. The Bella character in the books faints at the sight and smell of blood. It becomes a concern when they turn her to the point where she's told she needs to feed or she will die.

For someone claiming to not be defending the poor writing, you're doing nothing but defending the poor writing. Twilight characters are paper thin schlock and Edward practically defines emo.

Don't mistake the character in the books for the characters in the movies. 2 different things.

Its very different. The Masquerade is rather intricate and basically encompasses every classical and modern ideal of a vampire in some way. But they are still vampires, still need blood, still have flaws and weaknesses that come with their curse to make them interesting. The whole of the Masquerade is a set of laws that binds them into secrecy.

Only young vampires in the Masquerade can subsist off animals, but it is a poor substitute ( you need twice as much animal blood ) and looked down upon like eating out of a trash bin.

They hunt deer and other large animals in this story. it's a hell of a lot more blood than in rats, cats, and dogs.

Are you serious? You can't be serious. That is the most absurd thing I have heard in weeks. You're accusing me of racism against fictional characters because I'm criticizing how badly written they are?

Seriously?

How they are "created" has nothing to do with writing ability, or again, the lack there of. You're claiming she did a shitty job of creating vampires and I'm pointing out that they're no different from other writers' creations.

Some stick to the "rules." Some bend them, some expand on them, some change them. It's called Artistic Freedom.

But to say "This is not a vampire because it's not like this other one" is discriminatory at its core.

[Gravekeeper]

But they're not invincible. Vampires die in every book. Hell, there's a huge battle in one of them. Stories of other wars throughout the books.

The only concievable way to kill them is total dismemberment then setting the pieces on fire far as I understand. Impossible feats unless they are attacked by other vampires. Dismemberment only seems to be a mild inconvience as well, as they can apparently glue limbs back on with their venom or some such.

Yes, they do. The Bella character in the books faints at the sight and smell of blood. It becomes a concern when they turn her to the point where she's told she needs to feed or she will die.

As I recall, Bella needed blood to survive her pregnancy. But loses her revulsion to blood after turning and then Mary Sue's her way through being a vampire too. Amazing everyone at how awesome she is at vampiring and maintaining self control without randomly eating people.

How can there be a concern when she has to wrestle with herself to *not* rage feed on the first human she sees? =p

Don't mistake the character in the books for the characters in the movies. 2 different things.

I haven't seen any huge changes. They're as flat and self-fulling in the movies as they are in the books.

They hunt deer and other large animals in this story. it's a hell of a lot more blood than in rats, cats, and dogs.

I didn't even mention rats, cats or dogs and it wouldn't matter in The Masquerade. Feeding on any animal in the Masquerade is basically like eating Taco Bell out of a dumpster to your piers.

How they are "created" has nothing to do with writing ability, or again, the lack there of. You're claiming she did a shitty job of creating vampires and I'm pointing out that they're no different from other writers' creations.

She's a bad writer. Thats pretty much it. It doesn't matter if you can find equally bad writing somewhere else. It doesn't magically make her writing better. She wrote a Mary Sue wishfullfillment series where the central conflict wasn't much more than "Oh noes my superhawt rich immortal superman boyfriend won't fuck me" when you got right down too it. She wrote vampires that were essentially too awesome and thus had no real practical weaknesses to make them interesting.

Some stick to the "rules." Some bend them, some expand on them, some change them. It's called Artistic Freedom.

Artistic freedom is not the issue. Bad writing is.

But to say "This is not a vampire because it's not like this other one" is discriminatory at its core.

You can't discriminate against make believe. Dear lord. Do you realise how absurd you sound?

[HYHYBT]

How is bad writing NOT a valid criticism of a class of characters within a *book*?

I know next to nothing about Twilight, but yes, of course different authors can write their vampires (or werewolves, or dragons, or whatever) as different. But they ought to have enough in common with other depictions that they're plainly recognizable.

[Andara Bledin]

Ah, right, that reminded me of a case where race matters: Wild, Wild West.

I was a fan of the original and I liked the movie, but the idea of Jim West being a black secret service agent during that time is just laughable. There's an awful lot of suspension of disbelief going into just that one detail.

Is that the one with Whoopi Goldberg or is that Miyuki-Chan in Wonderland?

I was thinking Goldberg. I've never seen that version, I just know it exists. And Miyuki-Chan is another thing entirely.

This swerve into Vampires has me wondering about why all the hatred for the Twilight Vampires simply because they "sparkle."

The sparkling crap is just a focus for the irritation at the whole series, I think. Plus, that's got to be one of the lamest reasons ever for a superior race of beings to hide from sunlight.

I mean even Lestat, in one of my favorite vampire stories of all time, was a bit boring.

He was, at heart, a far more interesting character than Louis. Louis acted all sensitive, but he really wasn't, and Lestat tried to hide his sensitivity with his bad boy charm.

No one gives a shit about people coming up with new kinds of vampires or werewolves or whatever. But when you change or remove everything that identifies it as a vampire to begin with, including the downsides, then you're a shitty writer.

What is the one, single, basic thing a vampire is: They feed off of something.

The Twilight vampires don't. Thus, they aren't vampires, they're merely called vampires because the author was lazy.

Shit, when you come right down to it, they act more like elves than vampires. That would certainly explain the sparkling stuff.

Except that elves don't have the appeal of some abusive, emo, bad boy who isn't really bad he's just 'misunderstood.'

^-.-^

[Gravekeeper]

The sparkling crap is just a focus for the irritation at the whole series, I think.

Pretty much. They're written like someone got into an RP fight and pulled a new power out of their ass every turn to avoid their character ever appearing not cool and superior to everyone else. I hit you with my super strength! I dodge it with my super speed! You can't sneak up on me because I have super hearing! Sunlight doesn't hurt me, I'm a different kind of vampire! Your bullets just bounce off of me! You cut my arm off but I can just stick it back on and it'll heal! I don't really need blood, it just makes me a bit stronger!

Shit, when you come right down to it, they act more like elves than vampires. That would certainly explain the sparkling stuff.

They really do come to think of it. But elves doesn't sound as cool and bad boy as vampire.

Except that elves don't have the appeal of some abusive, emo, bad boy who isn't really bad he's just 'misunderstood.'

I'm still really wondering at what the message of the series is. Because it seems to be "No matter how perfect and wonderful you are, if you have sex even ONCE you will instantly get pregnant and die horribly from touching a penis." -.-

That's ignoring the whole zombie sperm thing of course.

[wolfie]

In the movie version of "The hunt for Red October", there were 2 characters I had envisioned (from the book) as white, but where the actors were black. One I could accept, but the other I could not.

Sonarman Jones: Part of the stereotype of a computer geek is being white. No reason a black person can't bee a geek.

James Greer: ThfRO is not a standalone book - it's part of the Jack Ryan series. One book in the series (Without Remorse) is background material covering the origin of Mr. Clark. It's set toward the end of the Vietnam War, and James Greer has recently retired from the Navy as an Admiral to join the CIA. Considering how recently the U.S. military was desegregated, the idea of having someone who was an Admiral during the Vietnam War be black is ridiculous.

Robert Jackson, on the other hand (didn't appear in ThfRO, but a major character in the Jack Ryan series) did eventually become an Admiral (and later, Vice President), and he's black - but this is in modern times, so it doesn't require suspension of disbelief. I would have serious problems, however, if this character were played by a non-black actor (in the books, it's clear that he's black - and it's a key point in some events that take place in Patriot Games, and in The Dragon and the Bear).

[Mytical]

I guess for some things, race does not matter..but there are exceptions to every rule. Zoro just wouldn't be the same if say Australian..a black Bruce Banner just doesn't seem to fit. If a character is WIDELY established..then yes..race matters. If not, then I guess it doesn't.

[anakhouri]

I would normally not care (like the black guy playing Kingpin in Daredevil) but sometimes changing race would be absurd. Ages ago I heard of an American version of The 47 Ronin starring Keanu Reeves. I don't believe anything ever came of it but since ronin is a uniquely Japanese concept, it would be ridiculous to cast a white man in it.

In another example, I watched a TV remake of Annie in which Daddy Warbucks' girlfriend was a black lady. Now, the story is set in the 1930's. What high-profile white millionaire is going to have a public relationship with a black woman, much les marry her at the end, pre WWII? If anything she would be his secret mistress. Ridiculous.

In general though the places race would matter are few and far between.

[Andara Bledin]

James Greer: ThfRO is not a standalone book - it's part of the Jack Ryan series. One book in the series (Without Remorse) is background material covering the origin of Mr. Clark. It's set toward the end of the Vietnam War, and James Greer has recently retired from the Navy as an Admiral to join the CIA. Considering how recently the U.S. military was desegregated, the idea of having someone who was an Admiral during the Vietnam War be black is ridiculous.

Well, what kind of admiral was he? There was both a black rear admiral and a black vice admiral by 1976, and THfRO is set in 1984.

^-.-^

[jackfaire]

..a black Bruce Banner just doesn't seem to fit. If a character is WIDELY established..then yes..race matters. If not, then I guess it doesn't.

Why not? Why is it so important Bruce Banner be played by a white man? Should the actors always have the exact same color of hair? What if their eye color is different?

See that's my whole original point if the race of the person isn't a part of the story I don't see how it matters.

There is nothing culturally significant about Bruce Banner's cultural background.

Commissioner Gordon doesn't need to be white.

Bruce Wayne does.

Why? Because we always get a blue collar working man attitude from Gordon so he could be played by any man who can affect that feeling regardless of racial background.

Bruce Wayne comes from Old Money in a fictional city that seems heavily influenced by east coast cities. Thus he would need to be white because his cultural racial background plays heavily into who and what he is.

Even the response to the death of his parents is very Aristocratic in seeing himself as the protector of his people of his city.

On some level he sees himself as the ruler and defender of Gotham.

[Gravekeeper]

See that's my whole original point if the race of the person isn't a part of the story I don't see how it matters.

Let me flip that right around on you: If it doesn't matter, why change the race of an established character? Why make Bruce Banner black if he's been white for over 40 years? If the race change is not part of the story there is no point in changing it either.

Though something tells me you'd offend more than a few people by making Bruce Banner black all of a sudden. A black guy that turns into a giant rage monster when he gets angry? That....wouldn't go over that well I don't think.

As for Gordon, he was created in the 1930s. Not an easy time for a black man to achieve the rank of police commissioner.

[Ginger Tea]

Ultimates Nick Fury, depending on artist (some Xmen issues he varied), looked like Samual L Jackson iir this was intentional as a bit of fan wank from the writer/artists/editor of the core ultimate line, seeing as he's white in the main universe, it didn't matter what they did in the Alt and as the movies have shown, it swayed enough to get him hired iir as far back as the end credits scene in Iron Man.

Ultimates had the chance to rewrite/draw alot of characters I have no idea if this Magneto is a Holocaust survivor or not as I don't recall too much being fleshed out on him.

With The hunt for red october, had they secured the rights to the other books or were they done by another company altogether?
I know Harrison Ford took over the lead as the negotiations went south for one reason or another, but if they only had one book/movie deal then any cast changes are mostly irelevant as they could be doing best actor for the job.

Back on to vampires, latest Maven of the Eventide (or whatever) on TGWTG is about Underworld and as it's been years since I saw it she pointed out that there were hardly any humans in the movie aside from the tube stations.
In the end there might as well not have been any humans on the planet at all as blood was sythetic and it could have just been a space colony war on 'mutants'.

And as said earlier, myths and legends are way older than the first filmed efforts stamping the general look and feel into our culture.
One has Vampires being the dead Wherewolves comming back to life.

[Mytical]

I have to echo Gatekeeper here..if it doesn't matter..then why change it in the first place? Doesn't make sense. As for hair color, eye color, etc..I do hope you do realize that there is a world of difference. Though..honestly in Batman's or superman's case..yes I think it would matter. Batman has always been the dark/mysterious person. Suddenly having blond hair and blue eyes would be strange.. superman has his iconic look about him..always dark hair/eyes. So why not Albino? I mean shocking white hair/pink eyes? I mean..it shouldn't matter right?

[Ginger Tea]

Albino super human and Albino reporter known for dissapearing at the most inopportune moments, glasses are not that strong a disguise and I've never worked out how they work besides "they do cos that's how I wrote it"

Batman's hair has always been covered, his baby blue's might not look as menacing under the cowl, but as he has passed the mantle over (in retconned story lines and Elseworld mini's) to Robin, his blonde son becomes the next robin then batman, Hell he could be shocking Ginger under that hood and no one would know.