Why does race matter?

[Gravekeeper]

Back on to vampires, latest Maven of the Eventide (or whatever) on TGWTG is about Underworld and as it's been years since I saw it she pointed out that there were hardly any humans in the movie aside from the tube stations.
In the end there might as well not have been any humans on the planet at all as blood was sythetic and it could have just been a space colony war on 'mutants'.

Ah, the Maven. Not really sold on that char. She comes across as trying too hard. But yeah, Underworld's focus was vamps vs werewolves. Which is fine if thats the focus. But Twilight's focus was a woe as me upper class white girl who does nothing yet deserves everything because everything revolves around her. Vamps and werewolves were just things caught in the gravitational pull of the Bellaverse.

I have to echo Gatekeeper here..

That princess is in another castle. >.>

[Andara Bledin]

Albino super human and Albino reporter known for dissapearing at the most inopportune moments, glasses are not that strong a disguise and I've never worked out how they work besides "they do cos that's how I wrote it"

Watch the first Superman movie with Christopher Reeve. There's a whole lot more to the 'disguise' than just a pair of glasses. Of course, that's a lot harder to convey in the comics.

If it doesn't matter, why change the race of an established character?

Sometimes, the best actor for the role is not the one that looks the closest to the part.

I offer up Hugh Jackman as Wolverine for exhibit number one.

Wolverine is stated to be 5'3" and weigh just about 200 lbs.

Hugh Jackman is 6'2" and likely usually weighs somewhat less than 200 lbs (my guess is between 180 and 190).

And yet, despite being notably the wrong size and build for the character in question, he really does a bang-up job in the role.

^-.-^

[Gravekeeper]

Sometimes, the best actor for the role is not the one that looks the closest to the part.

I offer up Hugh Jackman as Wolverine for exhibit number one.

Yes, but Wolverine, despite his official statistics, is practically never drawn to scale in the comics. Because the style of comics doesn't lend itself well to shorter heights. So his height is not an issue and doesn't really register with fans. In fact most comic characters tend to randomly vary in height from artist to artist. Also, his weight includes the weight of the adamantium, so its irrelevant. If he was really 5'3 and 200lbs, he'd be a bit portly.

Finally, his height was retconned to 5'11 in 2000 for Ultimate Marvel. -.-

[Racket_Man]

In the movie version of "The hunt for Red October", there were 2 characters I had envisioned (from the book) as white, but where the actors were black. One I could accept, but the other I could not.

Sonarman Jones: Part of the stereotype of a computer geek is being white. No reason a black person can't bee a geek.

From what I remember from the book Jones IS descirbed or protraied as black. at least that is the impression I got when I read the book. A geeky intelligent black guy just biding his time to get back into grad school after a bad prank

James Greer: ThfRO is not a standalone book - it's part of the Jack Ryan series. One book in the series (Without Remorse) is background material covering the origin of Mr. Clark. It's set toward the end of the Vietnam War, and James Greer has recently retired from the Navy as an Admiral to join the CIA. Considering how recently the U.S. military was desegregated, the idea of having someone who was an Admiral during the Vietnam War be black is ridiculous.

considering that the US military had been desegregated (by executive order of President Truman in 1948) for around 25 years at the point in time the Without Remorse takes place it is not a stretch that Greer coulld have been a Rear Admiral.

Robert Jackson, on the other hand (didn't appear in ThfRO, but a major character in the Jack Ryan series) did eventually become an Admiral (and later, Vice President), and he's black - but this is in modern times, so it doesn't require suspension of disbelief. I would have serious problems, however, if this character were played by a non-black actor (in the books, it's clear that he's black - and it's a key point in some events that take place in Patriot Games, and in The Dragon and the Bear).

also note that in the first "post-Ryan but still in the Ryan-verse" novel Teeth of the Tiger (featureing "Little" Jack Ryan all grown up and ready to kick ass and take names) it is said that Robbie Jackson (who ran for President after Ryan left office) is assasinated by some racist nutcase who did not want a Balck President. that saddened me me when I read that.

Well, what kind of admiral was he? There was both a black rear admiral and a black vice admiral by 1976, and THfRO is set in 1984.

^-.-^

It is not THfRO but Without Remorse (set in the early 1970's) that Greeer is retiring as an Admiral

[jackfaire]

Let me flip that right around on you: If it doesn't matter, why change the race of an established character? Why make Bruce Banner black if he's been white for over 40 years? If the race change is not part of the story there is no point in changing it either.

In the comic books you shouldn't honestly there is absolutely no reason too. However if your casting a movie and you find the best person for the part is about to be cast aside because he isn't the same skin color as the character in another medium then the casting director is being an idiot and the fans should realize that the character being like the character in the comic is what's important not whether he looks exactly the same.

Nick Fury should always be a believable bad ass. They got one. But many people are pissed because he isn't white.

[Gravekeeper]

In the comic books you shouldn't honestly there is absolutely no reason too. However if your casting a movie and you find the best person for the part is about to be cast aside because he isn't the same skin color as the character in another medium then the casting director is being an idiot and the fans should realize that the character being like the character in the comic is what's important not whether he looks exactly the same.

Fury was changed to a black guy in the Marvel Ultimate universe reboot and used Jackson's likeness with permission. So when movie time rolled around there'd be a black version of Fury for about 7 years and it was already based on Jackson. So it was pretty natural to cast him in the role. Anyone pissed he was black in the movies is years behind the curve. >.>

Still, he was pretty much totally redone in the comic reboot. Fury was originally Italian and a colonel I think. Reboot Fury is black and a general. So it was a pretty major change but ironically its more likely they did it because they thought Fury = Badass = Samuel Jackson is bad ass = Make Fury look like Jackson to make the reboot marketable.

As that was the whole idea behind the reboot. Making it marketable to a new audience. Long time fans being pissed honestly have a legitimate gripe there me thinks.

[AdminAssistant]

I know there is a big push in theatre for more color/gender-blind casting so that there's a greater variety of roles for all kinds of actors. I've seen it work in some cases, but there are times that I don't think it makes sense. However, this practice has caused some playwrights/publishers to include clauses in their contracts. For example, if you buy the rights to perform Waiting for Godot by Samuel Beckett, you have to sign a form stating that you will perform the piece as written. People who have been caught trying to stage all-female versions have been sent cease-and-desist letters, sued, and so on.

It's a complicate issue, that's for sure.

[lordlundar]

I think the most amusing incident was with Thor where Idris Elba (decidedly black) was cast for the role of Heimdall (a historically white character). Those complaints hit a fever pitch early on and lasted right up until the first screening where Mr. Elba delivered probably the best performance in the movie next to Anthony Hopkins. And the response from the ones defending the decision? They had the ability to say "yeah, all your arguments? they mean precisely dick."

Point is, if the actor can deliver in their role and the race was not a factor in the story in the first place, the race tends not to matter. (and apart from the need to avoid stereotypes, a black batman would be AWESOME!)

[SkullKing]

Point is, if the actor can deliver in their role and the race was not a factor in the story in the first place

Norse God. Race WAS a factor. Keep in mind in the comics they really were gods. There is even one story where Thor went to the north pole because someone prayed for him with faith.

[jackfaire]

Point is, if the actor can deliver in their role and the race was not a factor in the story in the first place, the race tends not to matter. (and apart from the need to avoid stereotypes, a black batman would be AWESOME!)

In Heimdall depending on which Marvel thought your going with could be a valid argument.

In some Marvel stories the Norse Gods were actually shapeless formless aliens that evolved to an almost God like state but were impressionable and when meeting the ancient Norse people were given form.

So really if that is accepted by a fan as the way it is then yes Heimdall being black no matter how good the performance would seem disjointed and wrong because why would the Norse have imagined a black god?

If we are ignoring that then it is plausible that he wouldn't be white like the other Norse Gods and the humans just got it wrong.

[Mytical]

Ok..then I have a question. So a Russian (with thick accent) Captain America would be acceptable..right? I mean .. race doesn't matter. How about a chinese one? Why not, doesn't matter right?

Wait Jet Li as Captain America would rock...hmmm I have to rethink my observation.

[jackfaire]

So a Russian (with thick accent) Captain America would be acceptable..right?

If you redid his origin story yes.

The point I am trying to make is that if there is no special significance to the race it's not because of time period, historical accuracy or anything else then it shouldn't matter who the character is played by.

Going by WW2 no a Russian Captain America wouldn't work because Russia was our reluctant allies not all buddy buddy with us.

If we retooled his origin so he got his start in a war that takes place post Cold War then yes it would work.

The point is the race in and of itself does not matter. Yes if your doing a historically accurate WW2 movie then Hitler needs to actually look like Hitler

[fireheart17]

I was thinking Goldberg. I've never seen that version, I just know it exists. And Miyuki-Chan is another thing entirely.

I have seen the Alice in Wonderland version with Whoopi Goldberg in it. They mix elements from Alice in Wonderland AND Alice Through The Looking-Glass. It's not too bad a version of Alice in Wonderland and was actually the first one I was introduced to. And I was thinking Miyuki-Chan because of you mentioning that the Cheshire Cat is a woman. Miyuki-Chan involves all women.

For the record, the Cheshire Cat was a puppet with Whoopi's face on it. I don't think they used "she, her" etc. rather it was "it".

[Gravekeeper]

Ok..then I have a question. So a Russian (with thick accent) Captain America would be acceptable..right? I mean .. race doesn't matter. How about a chinese one? Why not, doesn't matter right?

People would demand his long form birth certificate and try to have him deported. >.>

If you redid his origin story yes.

No. People would lose their *shit*. Even as we discuss it hypothetically, somewhere there's a Fox News corrospondent getting a funny feeling his pants he can't explain. Remember the shit storm over Ultimate Spiderman being half black / half latino? And he was just Peter Parker's successor, not a reboot of Parker.

The point I am trying to make is that if there is no special significance to the race it's not because of time period, historical accuracy or anything else then it shouldn't matter who the character is played by.

The problem with your point is you're trying to apply it to long established characters. Thats where you run into trouble. If a character has been established with a particular race, culture or appearence, you're going to run afoul of that character's fans by making any drastic changes to the established character. Regardless of how important that character's race, culture or appearence might be to the story.

The whole point in making a movie from a comic or book or something, is to hook the fans of said comic/book into giving you more money. Arbitrarily changing characters for no real reason is going to piss them off. The entire point of casting is to find the best actor to play a part, but that *includes* appearence, like it or not.

[jackfaire]

The problem with your point is you're trying to apply it to long established characters. Thats where you run into trouble..

Most of the money coming out of comic book movies isn't coming from comic book fans so much as from the mainstream actually wanting to see it.

Also any Marvel and DC fans have been dealing with Reboots, Multiverses, etc so it confuses me when the movie which would be another time line than the one in the comic book is met with people losing their shit no matter how close it is to the comic book.

And yeah that's my point though if people's complaint about the one change in a movie is that the race was changed because the actor cast as them is a different race yet the character is identical to in the source material with no changes whatsoever beyond skin color. Well it just seems odd.

For example few fans of Heinlein have complained because in the movie Starship Troopers Diz is a girl instead of the guy she was in the book.

To me as long as they are faithful to the story I don't need the person to be exactly the same as the source.