Why does race matter?

[wolfie]

Well, what kind of admiral was he? There was both a black rear admiral and a black vice admiral by 1976, and THfRO is set in 1984.

^-.-^

Don't recall the subclass of admiral being mentioned. Setting for THfRO is irrelevant, because in "Without Remorse" he retired as admiral during the Vietnam war. I have no direct experience with officer ranks and races - I'm pulling from what I've seen elsewhere (even though nominally desegregated, extensive racism was depicted - although not between the main characters - in the TV series "Tour of Duty", and in an incident in the non-Clancy series "Wings of Gold" that occurred in Korea, where the fact that a FAC was black was unusual).

With The hunt for red october, had they secured the rights to the other books or were they done by another company altogether?
I know Harrison Ford took over the lead as the negotiations went south for one reason or another, but if they only had one book/movie deal then any cast changes are mostly irelevant as they could be doing best actor for the job.

Just double-checked - any background from WR would not be relevant to the movie version of THfRO - WR has a copyright date of 1993 (checked my copy), while THfRO the movie was released in 1990 (IMDB), so I stand corrected in that area. Still, if any future movies are to be made from books in the Jack Ryan series (or any series of books), the producers would do well to go over earlier (chronologically) books in the series even if they hadn't secured the rights to those books. THfRO/WR is an exception in this case because the chronologically earlier book was published later.

From what I remember from the book Jones IS descirbed or protraied as black. at least that is the impression I got when I read the book. A geeky intelligent black guy just biding his time to get back into grad school after a bad prank

It is not THfRO but Without Remorse (set in the early 1970's) that Greeer is retiring as an Admiral

I don't recall seeing that portion of Jones' description - I guess my stereotype of the computer geek was too strong. Thanks for pointing out the irrelevance of the setting of THfRO.

[Ree]

To me it has to do with being faithful to the source material.

I agree.

Race and gender shouldn't matter, but this is about ideas that have come out of someone's mind and imagination, and it has been put to paper in a certain way.

If the book is written with the characters of specific genders and races, why play fast and loose?

I really don't care about all that Hollywood "interpretation" and using the best actor for a role, despite gender and race not matching with the original story.

One of the reasons people have issues with movies not coming across as anything like the books is because of crap like that.

I recall reading a murder/mystery/suspense book one time, and it had me on the edge of my seat, turning pages furiously trying to get to the end so I could see how it all turned out.
I was so excited when I saw it at a video store one day. I hadn't realized it was turned into a movie.
I rented the video, and excitedly waited to see the story played out on my screen.

What a disappointment!
If I hadn't seen the title, and read that it was based on that book, I wouldn't have even known it was the same story. There were some similar elements, but a lot of the really great parts that had me biting my nails were completely changed, and some of the more interesting characters were written much differently than in the book.

If one is not going to be true to the source, then why bother?

[Nekojin]

If one is not going to be true to the source, then why bother?

A few reasons:

1.) Because not everything that is compelling in print makes for the same compelling scene when put on celluloid. Great descriptive passages that effectively set the stage for a dramatic scene are covered by set design, elaborate detailing rendered to a second or two (if even that) on-screen.

2.) Sometimes, it really does need improving. I'm reading A Game of Thrones right now (after watching the first season of the HBO series based on it), and there are many, many scenes that are changed for dramatic effect or dropped for time. I know the stereotypical meme that whatever version you experience first is the "true" version, and others are inferior, but that's definitely not the case here. Both the book and the TV show have passages where they really shine, and neither is out-and-out "better." Some scenes in the book are extravagant fluff that was left on the cutting-room floor (or never even shot in the first place), but are excellent narrative nonetheless. Some scenes in the book are too short or too long, and are altered to fit the medium. Tyrion Lannister's trial at the Eyrie, for example, is a vastly different scene in the book from the TV series, but the essence of the scene and the ultimate outcome is the same.

3.) Sometimes the best man for the job isn't who the fanbase thinks is the best man for the job. When Hugh Jackman, a man who is 6'2" tall, was cast to play Wolverine (typically described as a short man, and officially listed as 5'2"), fans of the comic screamed about it. And yet, Jackman nailed that role.

4.) And some of it is outright Hollywood egotism. Some things are changed because Hollywood really doesn't want to stick too close to the source material - there's a belief that everything can be improved in the rewrite. Thankfully, that egotism is starting to fade a little, as movies that are extremely true to their source material are showing that they can still be powerful (Sin City, for example, wherein you can actually take the original comic and find many panels that can be found perfectly in the movie).

[Ginger Tea]

Regarding murder mysteries, the ammount of time Agatha Christies works have been adapted for TV or the big screen, by the time ITV filmed a book for the 3rd or 4th time (iir BBC did the first run but I'm not too sure), it kinda should be shaken up somewhat.

By the end of the book you know Mr. Smith is the murderer, so when you see Mr. Smith on screen you go "He's the killer.", or if you saw one of the movies with Peter Eustonov (sp) and are watching the David Suchet run ...

Say Mr. Smith is actually the first to die and the killer ends up being the books 3rd victim, some things might be changed like gender (I know that happened on a few of the Pariot stories), other wise a well known story ends up like Columbo, we see the murder take place in the first five minutes and who dunnit.

[Andara Bledin]

Murder mysteries don't need to be changed to still be fresh. It doesn't matter that you already know who did it; it only matters whether or not the set-up is played out properly. The only reason to change around who did what is hubris, really, as though the script-writer knows better than the original author and all previous script writers.

If you ever changed anything substantial in an established Sherlock Holmes story, for example, you'd likely just ruin the entire thing; Doyle went to great pains to ensure that only one person could have possibly committed the crime in question, and that there would be minute clues scattered about that would all eventually lead back to that person. At that point, you might as well just write an entirely new story than muck about with an old one.

^-.-^

[Ree]

other wise a well known story ends up like Columbo, we see the murder take place in the first five minutes and who dunnit.

Columbo still ran on TV for 10 seasons.
It wasn't about the murder. It was about watching him bumble his way through the lies and coverups, even though it seemed as if he knew the truth after the first meeting with the killer. LOL.

With a book, even knowing the outcome, it's still very interesting and fulfilling to see it played out on the screen after having this vision in one's head all through the book.
I find it disappointing when things get changed around because it messes with the picture I had.

[Ginger Tea]

I wasn't meant to diss columbo, but Agatha Christie has been filmed time and time again that tbh her stories can be shuffled to an extent, Holmes however may be too technical just to change anything other than name.

Which in a way was all I was getting at with my other post.
Killer name bla find bla replace with yadda, if their is a connection like husband and wife father and son etc, then yes make sure that any name changes work within the confines.

But always knowing it's Mr. Smith who dunnit every time the book is redone for TV, well aside from the "Well why remake it?" the killer is always the killer with the same motives, just names are shuffled just to put you off guard, unless you know the story back to front (which I don't) it's kinda fun to find Mr. Smith to be the red herring 3rd time round.

[Lace Neil Singer]

Ok..then I have a question. So a Russian (with thick accent) Captain America would be acceptable..right?

Well, the Russians have their version of Captain America already, you know. ie, Omega Red.

Having said that, I'd be pissed off if Hollywood cast a black actor in that particular role, or an American who messed up the accent.

Re Gravekeeper: "Bellaverse". Snicker. Will have to remember that one.

Also, will throw in one of the most abysmal movies ever as evidence of why race does sometimes matter in movieverse.

http://www.cracked.com/article_18605...ovie-ever.html

Caucasian Chun Li. Irish Bison. That twat from the Black Eyed Peas playing Vega, who's Spanish. Yes, race does matter if you're making a Street Fighter movie.

[Nyoibo]

4.) And some of it is outright Hollywood egotism. Some things are changed because Hollywood really doesn't want to stick too close to the source material - there's a belief that everything can be improved in the rewrite.

And it is for this reason I shall never forgive M. Night. Shamalamadingdong

[HYHYBT]

See, now you've got me imagining a version of "And Then There Were None" where the the killer is an otherwise-unseen character who leaves by helicopter once he's finished.

It might be made to work, but it's not the same story; it lacks the very core of what makes the book what it is.

Knowing how it turns out only ruins a story if finding that out is the only reason you were reading/watching it. The important part is how the whole thing is crafted, which you can really only get on a second (or more, if you're a bit forgetful) pass.