Online anger erupts over "racelifting"

[Slytovhand]

I tend to go with what the original author had in mind. So, Heimdall was weird for me... the Norse were blond and blue-eyed, not black and dark-eyed. Sure, he played it well, but it didn't seem right.

OTOH, when Earthsea came out, the producers made the decision to completely alter the race relations which the author had specifically set up - and set up to make a particular point. That point being, we tend to make stereotypical judgements about people based on their race. So, when the main characters had their features changed, it really changed the story! (not to mention the ridiculous name change!!!) Would we watch a movie if the main heroes in it are from a different race, and the main antagonists are of our race?? Would we be able to feel the empathy that the director was trying for? Do we NEED that racial connection???

Sam Jackson did a great job, and I expect him to do more in the role in the future. NOT being a comic fan of it, it made absolutely no difference to me!

IIRC, in Michael Moorcock's Elric series, I thought that Melniboneans were portrayed as having dark (ie, latino) skin... and Elric himself was an oddity in being an albino (separate from his people). if they ever get around to making that movie, I'm going to cringe.... (also, Melniboneans are described as being quite alien from humans... so I'll really hate it if they do another LotRs job, as per the Elves... ie, just another form of human).

[Ginger Tea]

wait a min, since when is "wrong race" new? heck the '89 batman flick had a black Harvey Dent (Billy Dee Williams)!!!

But iir in the movie he was little more than a cameo as he did not reprise the roll in the sequel (afaik there was no Harvey Dent in 2) so new to batman people wouldn't know who harvey dent is, they might know the name twoface though.
He was a District Attourney who just happened to also be called Harvey Dent gotham's a small world

If they had intended to sow the seeds of each character by cameoing an actor in each movie and then introduce them for real at some point, then recasting him for batman and robin? with Tommy Lee Jones is a bit jarring as the other movies you see Billy Dee Williams sporadically.
But iir there was only one scene with him in the first and none in the second.

[SongsOfDragons]

OTOH, when Earthsea came out, the producers made the decision to completely alter the race relations which the author had specifically set up - and set up to make a particular point. That point being, we tend to make stereotypical judgements about people based on their race. So, when the main characters had their features changed, it really changed the story! (not to mention the ridiculous name change!!!) Would we watch a movie if the main heroes in it are from a different race, and the main antagonists are of our race?? Would we be able to feel the empathy that the director was trying for? Do we NEED that racial connection???

I feel for Ursula Le Guin, absolutely none of the adaptations that have been made of Earthsea have got Sparrowhawk right...I couldn't actually finish watching the last attempt made on Tombs of Atuan because it was DREADFUL.

[SkullKing]

IIRC, in Michael Moorcock's Elric series, I thought that Melniboneans were portrayed as having dark (ie, latino) skin... and Elric himself was an oddity in being an albino (separate from his people). if they ever get around to making that movie, I'm going to cringe.... (also, Melniboneans are described as being quite alien from humans... so I'll really hate it if they do another LotRs job, as per the Elves... ie, just another form of human).

Actually if I recall correctly, the Melniboans DO resemble elves a lot in appearance(although they are not, Prince Corum however, is).

All the times Moorcock talks about how alien the Melniboans are, he is referring to their culture and thought process, which are indeed very alien.("more akin to a cat's than a human's").

[Nekojin]

Husband thinks I was exhibiting reverse racism. I think he was right.

Nitpick: There's no such thing as "reverse" racism. It's just simply racism. (and no, I'm not trying to bash you here or call you racist - just clarifying that "reverse racism" is a fairly meaningless buzzphrase).

I don't get how not knowing much about a character automatically translates into an "-ism," though.

[Nyoibo]

Would we watch a movie if the main heroes in it are from a different race, and the main antagonists are of our race?? Would we be able to feel the empathy that the director was trying for? Do we NEED that racial connection???

Well Avatar did pretty well, so I'm going to say yes, yes and no.

[Ginger Tea]

Aliens is a bit different to Humans from another country who may have darker skin than you.

Although Pocohontas in space did well at the box office, was the social message understood or was it just 'oooh shiny' seeing as I never got round to watching it, I myself can't comment.

How many people would find a movie based around slave trading to be enjoyable, even if the tribe/group of Africans escape at the end of the movie?
It's probably too politically charged a hot potato to even try drafting a script.

So if the book meantioned a few posts ago was a book using past deeds ie slavery as a basis for any untrust, it looses it's poiniancy as white folk were not big on white folk slavery at that time period, yes it happened but mostly during greek/roman times.
And if they made the bad guys black then it implies that an African nation was big on slave trading whites to america.

[siead_lietrathua]

But iir in the movie he was little more than a cameo as he did not reprise the roll in the sequel (afaik there was no Harvey Dent in 2) so new to batman people wouldn't know who harvey dent is, they might know the name twoface though.
He was a District Attourney who just happened to also be called Harvey Dent gotham's a small world

well, ya, it was just a cameo role. but it was a cameo role of a major character! it would be like changing Johnothan Crane to black, or making Waylon Jones white, the fanboys/girls will notice. i can understand wanting to use the more popular names but it's still messing with an established, long-running and popular villian.
people new to batman may not notice, but if they decide to learn more about it they may be confused or irritated at the randomness.

[Rapscallion]

Learn more about from which movie?

I consider the constant remaking of the same story confusing.

Rapscallion

[Lace Neil Singer]

Aliens is a bit different to Humans from another country who may have darker skin than you.

Although Pocohontas in space did well at the box office, was the social message understood or was it just 'oooh shiny' seeing as I never got round to watching it, I myself can't comment.

How many people would find a movie based around slave trading to be enjoyable, even if the tribe/group of Africans escape at the end of the movie?
It's probably too politically charged a hot potato to even try drafting a script.

So if the book meantioned a few posts ago was a book using past deeds ie slavery as a basis for any untrust, it looses it's poiniancy as white folk were not big on white folk slavery at that time period, yes it happened but mostly during greek/roman times.
And if they made the bad guys black then it implies that an African nation was big on slave trading whites to america.

Well... they did make "Passion of the Christ", remember? And you could easily say that since Jesus was in all likelihood not white, that was a case of "racelifting".

[Slytovhand]

Actually if I recall correctly, the Melniboans DO resemble elves a lot in appearance(although they are not, Prince Corum however, is).

All the times Moorcock talks about how alien the Melniboans are, he is referring to their culture and thought process, which are indeed very alien.("more akin to a cat's than a human's").

Yeah, I know they are supposed to resemble Tolkein's elves... but in Jackson's LotR, they looked too human. Also, he did say a few comments about their physical features, including cat-like eyes, etc. So, yeah, if you read them...

(here's a copy and paste of this debate on Moorcock's Miscellany:

Melnibonean are Elves. Whatever you call them: Vadhags, Xenan, Eldar. This point has been made in the Corum saga when he encounters a lady who recognizes him as one. While Tolkien never really much described his Elves else than "fair" and "luminous", Mr Moorcock is much more prolific in details.
They are beautiful indeed. They are slim and graceful. They have triangular faces and high cheek-bones. They have pointed ears without earlobes. They have huge slanted eyes and exquisitely chiseled features. They are feline and androgynous (let's not chicken out from that fact, please!) and they are plainly non-human, "eldritch". That element is so plain that normal humans tend to see them as demons. You cannot mistake them for a human, even at first glance...
(That is also a part of Elric's "eeriness": when "possessed" by Stormbringer, his beautiful elvish features twist into a terrifying mask, like a snarling wolf. That dramatic change from "angelic beauty" to "raging demon" would be also a very interesting point if actually treated that way visually.)

(Oh, looks like I've been interpreting Tolkein's elves ... in accurately

Totally agree on the psychology as well!

MM comments afterwards, and doesn't directly disagree...

[BlaqueKatt]

one earlier example of movie "racelifting" where the director chose the actor based on his ability to act and fit the character was 1994's Shawshank redemption. Morgan Freeman's character "Red" was a red haired, pale skinned irishman, but Freeman played the heck out of that character.

[siead_lietrathua]

@rapscallion: sorry for late response. i ment if people want to learn more about batman in general, not the movie.
for a loose example, let's say the watchman movie made dr. manhattan... pink. many people that saw that movie became fans, and picked up the comic. those people would see dr. manhattan as blue in the book and instantly wonder why it was so diffrent in the movie.
those little "wtf" moments when the viewer goes back to the source material are always annoying, and not all of them are race-based.

[lordlundar]

@rapscallion: sorry for late response. i ment if people want to learn more about batman in general, not the movie.
for a loose example, let's say the watchman movie made dr. manhattan... pink. many people that saw that movie became fans, and picked up the comic. those people would see dr. manhattan as blue in the book and instantly wonder why it was so diffrent in the movie.
those little "wtf" moments when the viewer goes back to the source material are always annoying, and not all of them are race-based.

Yeah it's a "wtf" moment, but it really doesn't affect the character or the story.

That's always been my beef with the complaints like these. If it doesn't affect the character or the story (a character that's a particular stereotype where it's a part of the story should maintain the stereotype as an example) then the change, beyond those "wtf" moments, are a moot point.

[fireheart17]

Yeah it's a "wtf" moment, but it really doesn't affect the character or the story.

That's always been my beef with the complaints like these. If it doesn't affect the character or the story (a character that's a particular stereotype where it's a part of the story should maintain the stereotype as an example) then the change, beyond those "wtf" moments, are a moot point.

Not to mention that some of the events mentioned in a book are IMPOSSIBLE to do unless you make the entire film CGI.
Take The Hunger Games. The ENTIRE book is written from Katniss's point of view, so for the film, they had to put in a few more things to help the audience understand what's happening out of the arena and explain why there's a bushfire all of a sudden, why the muttations are popping up, why Katniss receives what she receives and so on.