Star Trek- there be spoilers

[violiav]

Well at least we've found the parallel between Star Trek Into Darkness and Team America World Police. Although I suppose the marionettes managed to get to that topic six years earlier.

I meant more in the broader Star Trek Universe, than just the one movie. And the analogy fits, in a way. It was Truman that wanted to set up America to be the worlds police man (maybe it was Eisenhower, but my searches just come up with that damn movie). IIRC that's something touched upon in both TNG and DS9, or at least how outsiders (i.e. non Federation members) view Starfleet.
So Federation=UN and Starfleet= America.

I think Starfleet would have censured him honestly. That's a professional organization and he's treating it like college. There are very few workplaces where that's appreciated.

Yeah, in the original cannon they should have, but here they've pretty much kept his after-hours separate from his work persona. They're not cannon, but one of the better Star Trek books details him getting drummed out of Starfleet, because he violated the Prime Directive.

Star Trek Prime had several hundred episodes to keep straight, 9 films, and multiple centuries. I only hold Abrams accountable for two films and canon prior to the split timeline which he set up.

Yeah, now it does. Back in the 80's it had nothing of the sort, let alone the 60's. Inconsistencies are part Star Trek, and the people that are more apt to spot them are people that watch the show. Hence the Nitpickers Guide to Star Trek books, it's fun to pick Star Trek nits.
Timeline, includes Enterprise
As far as the cannon prior to the split timeline, well I can't really say much. Yeah they fudged on what had been established as the circumstances of Kirks birth (which is the precise point when the timeline splits, therefore rendering later Prime events null) in order to have a hero birth story. Now since the birth-dates and circumstances of the original crew -are- spread out over six movies and two series then, yes, if the writers tried to watch every single there ever was then it's more than likely they'd miss something.

Oh, here's another Nit- originally Kirk was given a commendation for cheating on the Kobayashi Maru (See ST:II) , not almost drummed out of the Academy (Trek '09). If they had kept that the same I wonder how many people would have been not quite approving. Award a guy for cheating? Who does that? Starfleet, that's who!

And, as I mentioned, I never really watched ST: Enterprise so I can't speak as to whether or not those events had any bearing on existing Pre- Kirk cannon.

When you say "gag" I think, Dumb and Dumber or Ace Ventura, and I don't recall that from STID. ST (2009) maybe (the bit where McCoy sneaks him on board the Enterprise), this one not so much. Now that I think of it, I think the reason why they made a relationship between Spock and Uhura is so that people wouldn't complain about Kirk having a romance (he doesn't, really) and how "that is sooo stereotypical".

As far as antics at Starfleet Academy, TNG flashbacks suggest that antics do happen. Also TOS episode Shore Leave. Now, even though those events aren't set in stone I don't believe that will inherently change the "after-hours" atmosphere of the academy.
As to Pikes randomly assigning ranks, well since he's only actually in 2 episodes (the first one and the two-parter) of the original series I think he's pretty much fair game as to what he would do or not do.


I'm not saying you can't like the movie or people can't like the movie, it's just a movie. I'm saying that it's inconsistencies are valid (intentional or not) within the greater Star Trek Universe, if only because Star Trek is inconsistent.

[violiav]

The thing that bugged me (now that I think of it) was that they lessened McCoys role (never super major in some episodes). From what I can tell they did this to give more screen time to Uhura, or pander to a female audience and make her a little bit more than "Receptionist in Space" (yeah, I know she did more in the movies, but not a whole heck of a lot more in the show). In doing so McCoy was lessened.
Speaking as a female, I really don't feel the need to be pandered to. I guess I'm supposed to, crap I suck at being female then.

http://screenrant.com/star-trek-into...ia-references/

Look at slides 3, 4, and 9. I didn't watch Enterprise or the later part of Ds9, thus didn't catch the section 31 reference.

[Ginger Tea]

As stated earlier, my knowledge of TOS is scant and I have only seen some of the movies a few times, not enough to go "oh that's that guy from that episode" or anything like that, so most of the Easter eggs listed would go over my head.

Back in the day the fact that Kirk screen kissed Uhura was a big thing, it might have only happened once, but it was a big thing, he could snog a dozen green skinned aliens and no one cared, but iir it was the first black and white screen kiss and given the recent civil rights advances, it got both sides going.
Those that were enraged about it and those that saw it as progressive, that by the time we made it into space and were not alone, all our differences would fade away.
Perhaps TOS was being progressive, maybe it's the general consensus that they were (like Khan's superior being, being 'ethnic') or it could have been courting controversy for ratings but we head cannon that out to the more palatable the future is free of this kinda thing.

I didn't know leaving WOK that Khan was a super soldier, just a villain that they had history with, and again TOS episode is a faded memory, but looking back DS9's Bashier was genetically enhanced I forget if he knew and kept it hidden till it was revealed later on, probably not a pre planned event mind, or if he was never told of his 'heritage' and was akin to a sleeper agent. Without knowing enough of Khan pre TOS episode, could that one man really damage the branch of science that created his enhancements a fair few hundred years later (the use of stardates obfuscate the issue, it's never Tuesday the 13th of may 2659 but it's meant to be a galactic wide time stamp like the whole of earth being set to GMT).

Khan being of Mexican decent and yet being the genetic superior to the Enterprise of TOS was seen as something within the fandom, but as was pointed out, he was just renamed and retconned from the script from his Nordic original cos his performance impressed them the most, this now gives me even less reason to like Darkness' Khan, they could have gone with the originals name, even left it as the alias he went by. He could have been a crew member/prisoner or whatever the ship was, revived instead of Khan, perhaps his lietenant or someone who wished to over throw Khan should they all be revived and being the first one, gave him a chance to kill Khan off screen replacing him with himself as the threat.

It's not the same as casting a woman as Starbuck as BSG and Battle Star Galactica were not intertwined, one was a reboot not a continuation of the other, so all the name dropping was just a nod to the original show, although hearing the name Balthar, you knew he was a baddie originally, even though throughout the show it was plain that he was just manipulated, we were always given reasons to mistrust him, just because of his name.
They could have had him just be a science tech already aboard and the one that 'sold them out' be some nameless face as he never ran away with the cylons to be their leader for a while.

Back to star trek, for ages TNG could be shuffled around with little to no repercussions on continuity, cos frankly it lacked it.
Watching Tasha Yar on the bridge an episode after the one she died in, that breaks it, but if you leave that one till late in the game, you can watch all of her episodes out of order and still write her out the same way.
Same for Riker's beard, it would be noticeable if a TV station ran reruns and alternated between beard and not with alarming frequency.
But on the whole a post Tasha TNG with Riker's beard in effect you could run them out of order to me and I might not pick up on anything out of the ordinary.
The borg being first season, they probably wouldn't matter too much either shown out of order.

[D_Yeti_Esquire]

Actually Ginger, that was my thing as well. If they'd just chosen to keep the super soldier but not use the name Khan (which really isn't necessary anyway unless you want people thinking about the original timeline character) and called him... John Harrison, I'd have enjoyed that aspect just fine. Khan's inclusion seemed compulsory rather than organic.

I'm also on board with the McCoy angle. If we wanted diversity, TOS was really the wrong series to reboot anyway. Every subsequent command crew had at least two women in it in more important functions than the Communications Officer. The Brechdel test is a tall order when you start with one woman to begin with.

Seeing McCoy just around to remind me how Deforest Kelly talks is just a bit of a drag for me. Maybe if they'd found a way to spin Uhura in such a way that she wasn't just Spock's girlfriend but still came across as some sort of emotional plug in place of Bones between Kirk and Spock, that might work. But she doesn't really do that in this series. She's just there as "the girlfriend."

[Ginger Tea]

That's the thing with any tv / comic to movie, you can have story arcs lasting 6 issues or split between multiple comic lines and develop characters more.
aside from the origin section, how long was Spiderman in days/weeks?
We the audience see 90 minutes of their life, but we get a weeks worth of action in a montage or a lot of nothing much happens is cut in a fade to black.

If they took the story of the first season of 24 as a 90 minute movie it would seem rushed in parts and a lot of the subtle hints would probably be exaggerated for the audience or cut for relevance to the whole, also it would benefit for the most part as 24 hours can drag after a while, I only saw it once on a weekly basis, but I think I would be bored by episode 5 if I did it in real time, cos the down time becomes more and more noticeable.

So back to Trek, again we are only on the 2nd movie and I have no idea how far they have come as a crew from the first, with the tv show we got to see them gel more, least I assume we did, but we at least got to know more about each character and why we should care for them. someone new to TOS would know going in (without seeing any movie, just the net being the net) that Spock, Kirk and Bones are the ones to watch, red shirts die on away missions and occasionally Scotty, Sulu, Chekov and Uhura did something of note, they got more to do in the movies, but my TOS knowledge is scant and episodes watched few, but outside of the first three, the others were only there to take orders and say aye captain, cept for communications officer Uhura, who was space switchboard.
Kinda like how Galaxy quest had Sigourney Weavers only job to be the one to ask the computer what was going on basically parroting the Captains order.

So we don't see the interim weeks months or even years between ST and STID, it's up to the writers to imply that they have gelled and matured as a team, a failing on that can make it look like it's days after the first so big WOK copied dialogue seems out of place, I do need to watch it to experience it myself, I'm going by my rusty knowledge of the dialogue and how swathes are reportedly lifted, emotions and friendship's decades old played out by people who've known each other a few months ... yeah.

For good or bad, at least with the first to 2nd police academy you felt that they had bonded over the first movie and kept them strong between the 2nd, with Attack of the clones we had gone from Young Obiwan and child Anakin to Adult Obiwan and young Anakin, all the growth was implied in dialogue in a lift.
That and the fact that it seemed so quick that someone who had not seen the other since they were 8 would by the end of a week be married, that is another example of the need to establish the length of the movie and not just the run time, I would be more forgiving if a 6 month time frame was established and not just implied via a montage of undetermined length.

[Rapscallion]

Time to weigh in, I guess.

I thoroughly enjoyed it. I do have a few quibbles here or there, related later. On the whole, I think the actors are getting into what it was that made the old characters who they were. Well, the image I have in my mind, anyway. There have to be some differences - in the old series Kirk was already a seasoned captain, and what we are presented with is kindergarten Kirk and some of his shenanigans.

Would old Kirk have been in bed with so many women in the old series? If the morals of the time would have allowed it, I fully believe he would.

Old series Uhura has been described in here as 'space receptionist' - not quite. See, she was black, female, and an officer. These days it's not unknown, though possibly rarer than I'd like to see. However, back then it was as much as Roddenberry could get away with.

I can accept the points that we don't have a series based on this alternate timeline to get used to the background, and after seeing both movies I really wish we did. However, it's an alternate timeline with similarities and I'm willing to accept that. It does have enough for me to amuse myself with. A new Old Series Star Trek would be nifty. Just saying.

The characters weren't really the things that grated for me. The scale of the action did.

The journey back from Kronos to Earth seemed depressingly short. Mr BadDude used a one-shot (I think) transporter that could take him there. If there's a threat from the Klingons, why not beam a few nukes over? I didn't have the impression of a huge universe where there would have been a cat and mouse game over conquered territories - it felt like the enemy armada could show up on your front doorstep at a moment's notice.

As someone who grew up on reshown old series and wanted to be Spock, though a somewhat more portly version, I loved the tips of the hat to the original. It wasn't precisely the same thing, but it was never meant to be, and the original had flaws of its own. I was able to turn off my brain here or there and just enjoy it. If I was more enthusiastic, I'd be a Trekkie instead of a Trekker, as I don't take myself or the source too seriously. It's fictional entertainment.

Besides, what would I rather watch? A big budget extravaganza that's close enough to the original to be recognisable (and let's be honest, that's all we can hope for in all the retelling going on these days), or watch fan-made efforts that often have far more passion than talent or budget? I know which one satisfies my Trek-based needs.

Rapscallion

[violiav]

Ideally I would prefer something set apart that didn't insistently name drop (like the others did, and like fan made productions do, it's painful sometimes).
This one doesn't at least, and it's errors I can get over because it's been done before. I don't really expect it to NOT have inconsistencies in space travel.
I did find this interesting though, in regards to a series. Abrams had planned to to a series as an extension of the movie, but CBS had issues.

It seems Bad Robot did some market research and found that the merchandise being produced to promote its rebooted Star Trek universe was actually the victim of brand confusion with the merchandise CBS was (and is) still producing to promote the original Star Trek series.

Brand confusion? Really? I personally don't mind having a bit of everything (if I had the money), and I can even tell the difference between things.

[BlaqueKatt]

Mr BadDude used a one-shot (I think) transporter that could take him there.

One that he himself designed and built with his super special enhanced brain power, and there was only the one prototype.

If there's a threat from the Klingons, why not beam a few nukes over?

Against starfleet rules, Starfleet has a Prime Directive of non-interference with developing worlds or their internal politics. It didn't become a "peacekeeping" or military unit until after several attacks on Earth.

[D_Yeti_Esquire]

Well personally I like the fact that they thawed Khan out and it took him less than 1 year to catch up on 300 years worth of scientific advancement and produce plans in time to design a fully functional warship, a transwarp beaming device, and execute a Batman Gambit like a boss.

[Rapscallion]

One that he himself designed and built with his super special enhanced brain power, and there was only the one prototype.

I didn't get from the movie that it was a Khan-only device, and they had a device there and should be able to retrofit it. It doesn't help that there's still apparently an hour's journey tops between Earth and Kronos.

Against starfleet rules, Starfleet has a Prime Directive of non-interference with developing worlds or their internal politics. It didn't become a "peacekeeping" or military unit until after several attacks on Earth.

The Klingons are hardly developing. They had warp power and there had been skirmishes with them already. In the first new movie there was mention of how the main fleet was in action in the Lorentian (I think) system. Starfleet isn't really shy of fighting when it has to.

Rapscallion

[Ginger Tea]

Taken from the same link Violiay posted

Much to the dismay of Bad Robot, CBS’ merchandising arm continued to create memorabilia and products based on the cast of the original 1960s series and market them to Trekkies… Bad Robot asked CBS to stop making products featuring the original cast, but talks broke down over money… In response, the company scaled back its ambitions to have “Star Trek’s” storylines play out with television shows, spin-off films and online components, something Abrams had been eager to accomplish.

This was a quote in the article not from the article itself, I kinda stopped there, hell I kinda started there thinking that was the source of the previous quote, it goes from "people might buy this kirk wanting to buy that kirk, which online might happen if there is a product description error and the wrong image is used, or if someone in packing sends the wrong one, but a comic book store you can see one is Shatner the other is blokeie from the new movie.

They can't sell both merchandise because?
Also if the first movie was a back door pilot, how well known were the actors to then work TV between the movies? I think I read that judge Dredd was also Bones, but his film-ogrophy I would have to IMDB, every other name bar JJ is a blank only cos I've not seen new new movies in ages and was last in the cinema for Predators and pay little attention to cast members unless I'm trying to figure out where I've seen a face before.

On a side note, I watched part 5 or 6 of a youtube lets play, it wasn't meant to play but I was bored so let it, Spock looks like Pigsy, now I expect the vjer reboot to now have sandy in tow and make kirk wear a headband that gives him a headache when he disobeys the boy who was voiced by a girl, or has it been so long ago that I just head cannoned it to be that way?

[HYHYBT]

The Klingons are hardly developing.

Nor, if they're attacking Starfleet ships, Earth, etc. would retaliation qualify as meddling in their internal politics.

[BlaqueKatt]

Also if the first movie was a back door pilot, how well known were the actors to then work TV between the movies? I think I read that judge Dredd was also Bones, but his film-ogrophy

Chris Pine(kirk), is the only "new" actor in the series.
Zachary Quinto(spock) was on 24 and Heroes
Zoe Saldana(Uhura)-Pirates of the Caribbean, Avatar, Columbiana
Karl Urban(bones)-xena/hercules, DOOM, Lord of the rings, Priest, Dredd
Simon Pegg(scotty)-Sean of the dead
John Yohan Cho(Sulu)-american pie movies, as well as being Harold from all the Harold and Kumar films
Anton Yelchin(checkov)-terminator salvation, fright night(remake), hearts in atlantis

[Ginger Tea]

I always forget Pegg is in that.

going by the list, for the most part none of them are too big to take a show down cos they wont stoop so low as TV, most coming from tv to begin with.

[draco664]

Would old Kirk have been in bed with so many women in the old series? If the morals of the time would have allowed it, I fully believe he would.

TOS!Kirk had a father he looked up to and admired. Reboot!Kirk had a stepdad who he thought so little of that at 9 he stole his antique car and deliberately drove it off a cliff.

They're not the same person - just have the same name.

The journey back from Kronos to Earth seemed depressingly short. Mr BadDude used a one-shot (I think) transporter that could take him there. If there's a threat from the Klingons, why not beam a few nukes over?

Hell, why bother building spaceships at all? The ability to transport matter between planets would pretty much make them obsolete, don't you think?