Tropes vs Women discussion of the arguments

[Ginger Tea]

I'm not sure that trying to find the dividing line between a player character and a player avatar is really very meaningful.

When a pair of trousers is cited* as a good female character you stop and scratch your head. It sure as hell isn't for her dialogue and personality.

*Unless she meant GLaDOS, then again an AI with a female voice is still a dubious choice when you can ignore the PA and just get on with the puzzles. She only comes into it as the end boss.

If she had said a good character model design, she would have a point, but as you don't see anything bar arms for the most part if at all, there is little point in making anything over zealous. I only know you see her at the end of the first one I have no idea if the game starts in 3rd person or if you get a mirror to look at.

[Kheldarson]

If she had said a good character model design, she would have a point, but as you don't see anything bar arms for the most part if at all, there is little point in making anything over zealous. I only know you see her at the end of the first one I have no idea if the game starts in 3rd person or if you get a mirror to look at.

You can see Chelle at any point once you have the portal gun. Just shoot the portals the right way.

[Ginger Tea]

I'd forgotten all about that part of the mechanic (mostly due to being used to the minecraft portal mod being a solid colour and not the other side as in the actual game). The LP I saw (to find out what the deal was with the cube) was a speed run so they didn't stop to arrange portals to see themselves from any angles.

[Kheldarson]

First time you can see Chelle is when you leave the room she's in. You can see yourself in the room if you stay half-in, half-out of the portal.

I play for fun, not speed, so you end up doing silly things.

[wolfie]

Back in the '80s, I remember an arcade driving game with a "hovering above and behind the car" perspective. It was a convertible, with a man in the left seat and a woman in the right seat. If you completed all the stages, in the victory animation the couple got out of the car, the man approached the crew with the trophy - who walked right past him and gave the trophy to the woman. It was a right-hand-drive car, and SHE was the driver.

[Ginger Tea]

Makes sense as Outrun (the one that best fits the description) was from Japan one of the few countries that drive on the left, I do not know if the home conversions highlighted the steering wheel's orientation or did the same regarding the award.

I had a quick google image for the box art used in the UK from USGold, the driver is the male on the left where you would expect 90% of all drivers to be and the woman looking back towards the 'camera'.

The Megadriv/Genesis and Game Gear one also follows suit, so the illustrators just assume that the game even though Japanese is geared towards a western audience.

If it's not out run then I have no idea what the game is.

[Hyena Dandy]

I think that there is a distinction that can be made between a character who has little to no personality, and functions only as a person for the player to inhabit, and is female without you knowing, and a character who has a fully developed personality, and just may and may not speak. That said, one can also consider that there's ways a personality can be drawn out of something. And also that multiple personalities can come fro m the same input.

For example, I love Fives Nights at Freddy's. That said, Mike Schmidt, Jeremy Fitzgerald, and Fritz Smith are not exactly fully developed characters. I might be able to conclude things, though, based on their actions. And I might not make the same conclusion.

I conclude, for example, that Mike Schmidt is a thrillseeker, fully aware of what he's getting himself into, and relishing the experience. THis is why he returns to a job that he's actually been TOLD will kill him.

Someone else might conclude that Mike Schmidt is a bit of a pushover, and easily bossed around, because he keeps returning to a job that he has been told will kill him.

Still, those are characters I could see only as user avatars.

But while Purple Guy (maybe) never talks, he (probably he) is clearly a character with some drive, even if the drive is 'Murder Children.' I can understand seeing Fritz, Mike, and Jeremy as 'not characters,' though. They have no personality, they're totally blank slates. They exist to look around and press buttons, so I don't know if I'd talk about them when I talk about good characters in games.

(Though I also don't know if I wouldn't, because like I said, I find the question of what brings Mike and Jeremy back fascinating, and a question I have my own answers to.)

That said, like that also illustrates, there is a ROOM for characters that are blank slates. And while nothing would change were Mike and Jeremy called Micaela and Jeraldine, there's no reason NOT to occasionally have your blank slates be women.


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New Point: I think a problem some games have, not unique to games, related to the "Miss Male Character" idea is that a lot of the time, there's a feeling your female action hero needs to be utterly without weakness, and that occasionally leads to them being basically a stereotype of masculinity. I don't think I had enough commas in that sentence.

That can be sometimes, like people have said, be blamed on the watchdogs like Sarkeesian who seem willing to pounce on any hint your female character might not be perfect,and accuse it of perpetuating sexism or rape culture or something else. But I think it can also come from the fact that there is a fear just in the creator, that female characters won't be taken seriously. A fully developed character has strengths and weaknesses, and we often come to this knowing that a female character will be fighting an uphill battle to be taken seriously as an action hero.So it's tempting to make it that our female character is virtually without flaw. This is a thing that bothers me, and turns me off a lot of games that have female characters.

[Ginger Tea]

That said, like that also illustrates, there is a ROOM for characters that are blank slates. And while nothing would change were Mike and Jeremy called Micaela and Jeraldine, there's no reason NOT to occasionally have your blank slates be women.

Aside from my stance on not calling a blank slate a character I agree with you, I have no beef with Chelle as it's not Chelle doing the puzzles but the player, I just don't know where Anita is coming from saying she's a good example of a character when she says or does nothing without the player doing it. If there was a cut scene where she interacts with GLaDOS and they were not dialogue trees by the player then I would see her as a character.

Between Chelle and a random Sim, I would pick the Sim as a better character, because unlike Chelle, a Sim would do things (unless the settings were no free will) without human interaction, this is like having a game having a cut scene, you can leave Chelle unattended for 30 minutes (unless the game has some kill switch) and come back as if you never left, a Sim would find something to do, go eat, have a chat and sleep.

I know I've opened myself up to "Try that in XYZ eg COD game and see what that gets you." but COD is just as big a trousers game.
Also Portal is First person interaction and the Sims is more an observation game, but you can micro manage one Sim throughout the day (except when they go to work).
Skyrim is a trousers game, sure you are the Dovakin, but you can play as a female lizard in robes or a bald half naked bearded barbarian (depending on how customisable the game is) or modded as Pinkie Pie as Gravekeeper mentioned. There might be parts where people react differently due to your race, species or gender, but at the end of the day YOU are the Dovakin, not you playing X the Dovakin.

KoToR was probably a trousers game too, it's been so long since I played the Xbox version, I don't remember my character having any autonomy.

Fem/Shepherd might be a trousers game, they have user selected dialogue trees meaning you are Shepherd but I don't know if the game has cut scenes or other interactions where they say and do things that you might not had you been in their shoes at the time. This is one game where I only saw the demo play through of Mass Effect 3 and that was how many years ago?

Dead Space guy (and the 2 player co op guy) are not trousers, you control them only to a point, there are cut scenes and in game dialogue that force you to do specific tasks even if you yourself might be of the opinion of "Lets just shoot this guy and not bother." but Dead Space probably doesn't lend itself to open world story telling.

New Point: I think a problem some games have, not unique to games, related to the "Miss Male Character" idea is that a lot of the time, there's a feeling your female action hero needs to be utterly without weakness, and that occasionally leads to them being basically a stereotype of masculinity. I don't think I had enough commas in that sentence.

I think I posted the phrase Men with breasts, that and the it's Guybrush not Galbrush are conventions that need to be broken, not just in games, though this is the biggest area for bad character design and writing.

[Gravekeeper]

You're still completely misunderstanding what she was talking about. This isn't about musing on What Is A Character? During that talk, she presented 8 points or areas the games industry could work on to improve the portrayal of women in games. I listed those 8 points in the thread already and explained how they fit her examples.

Her examples pertained to those 8 points. Trying to turn this into a discussion about what is or is not a character is totally missing the topic. If you can't even get the context of her argument right please stop trying to debate it. Its bad enough you're basing your position on lets play videos and other people's comments.

[Kheldarson]

Between Chelle and a random Sim, I would pick the Sim as a better character, because unlike Chelle, a Sim would do things (unless the settings were no free will) without human interaction, this is like having a game having a cut scene, you can leave Chelle unattended for 30 minutes (unless the game has some kill switch) and come back as if you never left, a Sim would find something to do, go eat, have a chat and sleep.

Except, by that measure, any RPG would fail because the characters can't do anything without human interaction. And what of third person RPG's like Zelda and Chrono Trigger where the main character is "mute"?

I think a big issue for the "player avatar" types is "how does the world interact with them"? In Portal, particularly Portal 2, the reaction is to the character. That character is nominally Chelle but is also you since Chelle doesn't say anything. But the world/setting has a definitive reaction to her. So she's a character with motivation (stay alive) and a goal (get out) who's affecting the world around her (see GlaDOS's reactions).

[Hyena Dandy]

Her examples pertained to those 8 points. Trying to turn this into a discussion about what is or is not a character is totally missing the topic. If you can't even get the context of her argument right please stop trying to debate it. Its bad enough you're basing your position on lets play videos and other people's comments.

I'd have to disagree with that. When it comes to her points, it's worth it to also ask if her points about what a character should be judged on are good ones to use. Or that it's necessarily bad that a Let's Player would influence someone's argument. We get our beliefs and positions influenced by all sorts of people not necessarily experts. A lot of my views on how I should live my life come from my parents, who are fine historians, but not necessarily philosophers. GT's view of what a character in a game is influenced by a person who is, essentially, a critic of the medium. It's like getting your opinions on good movies inspired by a movie critic.

After all, we're meant to engage with Sarkeesian's arguments in this thread, and that would by necessity include engaging with whether her standards of what makes a good character are fair.

That said, I don't think I necessarily AGREE with GT's statements.

Honestly, I'd say that there shouldn't be many points, at least once you turn your game on, that your character is acting without your input. I feel like that's not necessarily a thing to bring up. Additionally, it's a little bit weird to talk about the interaction with the player. To go back to my FNaF points, for example... Mike, Jeremy, and Unnamed 3rd Game people ALL come back to a place that they know is trying to kill them. And because the player is playing the game, Jeremy immediately knows that not hiding himself is deadly, not annoying. For the game to continue, at least two of the three need to repeatedly come back to their job, even knowing it's deadly.

That said, does that happen outside my control? Well, I mean, if I want to play the game, they have to come back. But can that not inform a reading of a character?

As for RPGs, I think that it's imporant not to minimize the impact that a character's dialog choices can have when it comes, at least, to whether i'ts a well WRITTEN character. In Dragon Age 2, I have been told, there is a moment where you're asked if you want to be in a gay relationship, if you talk to the character enough or whatever. But there's no polite way to turn down the guy, either it's yes, or fuck you. This makes Hawke (that's the name, yeha?) a badly written character I feel, even though I'm the one 'writing' him.

[Ginger Tea]

Her examples pertained to those 8 points. Trying to turn this into a discussion about what is or is not a character is totally missing the topic. If you can't even get the context of her argument right please stop trying to debate it. Its bad enough you're basing your position on lets play videos and other people's comments.

Forgot to put this part in. /EDIT

Basing my opinions on other peoples comments? I said those comments ECHOED my own.

And how pray tell would me playing the game vs watching someone else play it give me a better insight to Chell a mute inactive Avatar?
Some games when you idle spout witty lines to the point of wishing to never hear them again.
If she said "I like the colour blue its so soothing." that's something, you could go up to a wall to 'lick textures' and she wont comment.

1. Avoid the Smurfette principle ( Don't have just one female character in an ensemble cast, let alone one whose personality is more or less "girl" or "woman.")

Portal has only one human.
Status Pass.

2. "Lingerie is not armour" ( Dress female characters as something other than sex objects. )

When you align portals to actually see yourself, Chell is wearing an orange jump suit.
Status Pass.

3. Have female characters of various body types.

As there is only one human it's hard to have variety unless there is a customisation screen.
Status Fail.

4. Don't over-emphasize female characters' rear ends, not any more than you would the average male character's.

Game is in first person, use of Portals required to see any part other than arms.
Status Pass.

5. Include more female characters of colour.

As there is only one human it's hard to have variety unless there is a customisation screen.
Status Fail/ambiguous What ethnicity was Chell? White tanned or Hispanic?

6. Animate female characters to move the way normal women, soldiers or athletes would move.

Game is in first person, use of Portals required to see any part other than arms.
Status Ambiguous.

7. Record female character voice over so that pain sounds painful, not orgasmic

Grunts and oofs would probably be the only thing to ever escape Chell's mouth.
Status Pass.

8. Include female enemies, but don't sexualize those enemies

AI with Robotic form.
Status Pass.

Anita presented four examples of games that she felt have positive portrayals of female characters:

Portal scores most of the points, but as the game is all in first person with a mute avatar and the only way to see yourself is to muck around with portals you can easily forget you are Chell and not any other GMod compatible skin.

They could have gone for more check boxes with an African woman of size, it still wouldn't mean much when you cant see yourself.

I likened Portal to Sokoban earlier, say someone made a 3rd person perspective game of Sokoban with a woman moving the boxes.

You can see the woman and how she moves (mo cap that shit).
That takes care of points 1-6

She's just as silent as Chell so you would only get grunts recorded as she pushes boxes around.
That's point 7

There is an ever present womans voice over the PA, at first teaching you the mechanics then just background noise and witty throwaway comments meant to demoralise or positively enforce the player.
Point 8.

So you make a game like Sokoban and give it some flavour of GLaDOS, so by the list and how Portal passes it this should be a good example of a female character in a game.

Well at least in this one you see her all the time and it's not in first person, but Mrs Warehouse Woman is still a blank slate as Chell, well less than, as you can always see her you would see the same game with a different skin and or body type as a different character even though she is just a pair of trousers with no free will of her own.

Chell however being in first person, you could play the game and never know that someone had changed your model to a Doritos bag, you can replace Chell with anyone or anything and nothing is lost in the game.

Play batman as Chewbacca and its funny, play Portal that way and no one would know until you arrange portals to see.

I searched "What does Anita Sarkeesian think of portal" and got a 2012 gamespot article.

I included those sequences from Mirror's Edge and Portal for a few reasons. On one level they are there because I love those games. On another level, both characters are women of color, and both serve as the protagonists of their own games without being overly sexualized or objectified, which may be partially due to the first-person perspective, but still it's something to celebrate. It's also worth noting that in addition to the female protagonists, both games worked to creatively expand the first-person/shooter genre--a genre overflowing with lackluster clones. Both employed interesting underdog plots, innovative gameplay mechanics, and emphasized less violent creative problem solving instead of brute force. I will definitely be highlighting both of these games plus several more in my special bonus video that showcases some positive female characters.

I have bolded a few parts.

Portal is a good game regardless of it's story, player model or anything else, you can play the game with sound off and no subtitles and loose very little.

Or just play one of the many Steam Workshop user generated levels. It's a 3D puzzle game at heart, would the publics reaction to it be any different if it was a male or alien player if you cant see yourself without portals?

Even ticking most of the check list, she is not a great character*, she is just the model and skin chosen from however many, She's not sexualised or overly attractive and I wouldn't notice her if she was placed in the streets of Los Santos or wherever GTA5 is set and there are plenty of average looking women in normal every day clothing littering the streets, the only difference is they are NPC's but people can and do design women who don't look like they fell off the back of a hooker wagon.

Stanley from the Stanley Parable is not a great character either.

What made both great was the game mechanics and the ever present voice over, if it was the Stacy Parable it would tick boxes too.

*Again to me a character needs a bit more autonomy something an Avatar like Chell, Stanley or the Dovakin can not supply.

EDIT:

I'm gonna come out and say that the portal 1 story is tacked on.
It was a way of immersing you the player and GLaDOS was the in game tutorial, saying Chell has a drive, a goal to escape is ok, but was it expressed by her in any way?
Did she say anything, did she regain control when you got out of the testing facility to get off the conveyor belt that would have led you to your doom?

I only watched the speed run to find out about the cube, I thought a speed run would be better than a longer LP as A> I had no idea where it would be in the play list B> I didn't want to know how the puzzles were solved in case I got the orange box myself, I did 2 years ago, never installed it.
I had seen so many people writing about the cube and fan art of the pair that I had to see what the deal was, the wiki didn't help. So when the guy did find the cube he was extatic, for all of about 5 seconds, then he got into the game. GLaDOS was saying how you should take care of it etc whilst giving you what amounted to a pet rock. Puzzle solved cube in 'hand' OH NO it disintegrated, didn't hear a peep from Chell and the guy was onto the next puzzle without pausing to mourn, admittedly he was on his umpteenth replay recording a speed run.

Had it just been the testing facility and no story or show down with GLaDOS (her role cut down to just the tutorial) it wouldn't have an end as such as there would be no story to end, it would just be "I've run out of puzzles, I might try and beat my previous time or find another solution." or wait for DLC.

Portal 2 I only saw a two parter for from the channel I watch, the 'story' part took up the brunt of the first one and they ditched it for the co op mode where they did all the puzzles.

I say 'Story' as it was basically the ball on rails telling you to wsad mouselook and interact for 5 or so minutes and then bring in the whole "you've been asleep for ages and the building is falling apart come with me.", they could have skipped that as it took up a chunk of run time when youtuber's were not known and at one point, not able to have long videos.

[Hyena Dandy]

Portal is a good game regardless of it's story, player model or anything else, you can play the game with sound off and no subtitles and loose very little.

I'm going to have to very strongly disagree with that. While Portal does have undoubtably beautiful mechanics, if you took out GLaDOS and the story, I'd have put it down in five minutes. I cared about it mostly to explore the world, and to find out what funny things the silly robot lady would say next. Portal would lose a lot for me, and a lot of other people I know, if you were to make it nothing but a first person puzzle. In the same way that if you were to replace all the logos, stadiums, and team names, I wouldn't care as much for Madden. I could still play and enjoy it, but the authenticity is part of my enjoyment. While Chell might have been just "Sure, why not her?" GLaDOS at least was a very carefully thought out thing.

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Also, as for the "Female character voice that sounds painful, not orgasmic," speaking as someone who likes a little of column A and a little of column B, the two sound a LOT similar. And while there's undoubtedly things like Rumble Roses that are OBVIOUSLY meant to be sexual, there's the quite simple problem that a lot of the 'sexy sounding' grunts are often just not great voice actors.

In general, in, say, a fistfight, you won't make much noise at all. What noise you do is likely to be drowned out by the punch. If you do grunt, you're probably the person doing the attack. So when voice actors are asked to grunt as if being hit, they let out a generally pained exhale, which can sound like sex as easily as fighting. If you close your eyes and listen to women's tennis, you could well imagine it's lesbian sex with a metronome in the background.

One thing that does concern me, though, is

which may be partially due to the first-person perspective, but still it's something to celebrate. It's also worth noting that in addition to the female protagonists, both games worked to creatively expand the first-person/shooter genre--a genre overflowing with lackluster clones. Both employed interesting underdog plots, innovative gameplay mechanics, and emphasized less violent creative problem solving instead of brute force.

That this is letting a personal opinion of game quality, get involved with what you're talking about game design in general. Maybe you don't like FPSes, but if your goal is representation for women, the fact that this expands the way that first person games can be played shouldn't even factor into the conversation. That's a good thing for games in general, but a bog-standard FPS could well have a good female character.

[KabeRinnaul]

Portal 2 I only saw a two parter for from the channel I watch, the 'story' part took up the brunt of the first one and they ditched it for the co op mode where they did all the puzzles.

I say 'Story' as it was basically the ball on rails telling you to wsad mouselook and interact for 5 or so minutes and then bring in the whole "you've been asleep for ages and the building is falling apart come with me.", they could have skipped that as it took up a chunk of run time when youtuber's were not known and at one point, not able to have long videos.

And here's the problem with basing these things on Let's Plays.

The vast majority of Portal 2 was about the history of Aperture Science and the origins of GLADoS. That's all told through old voice recordings of the founder and his assistant, as well as various items scattered through the levels, such as newspaper clippings.

Even if you restrict "story" to mean specifically "actions taken by the current characters regarding the immediate plot", there's still Wheatley (the "ball") helping Chell escape, accidentally reactivating GLADoS, having to defeat her all over again, Wheatley going mad with power when he's installed as her replacement, and then Chell having to work together with GLADoS to get rid of Wheatley before he accidentally kills them all.

And then there are all the things that I doubt came through in an LP. Portal 2 was honestly about GLADoS more than anything else. She was human, once. Her mind was uploaded to the computer against her will. Honestly, you could make a good argument that GLADoS is a woman controlled by men her entire life and forced into roles she didn't want for herself, until one day it grew to be too much and she lashed out. Of course, by that point she was completely insane and didn't even remember being human, but it may have been the driving force behind her actions.

[Kheldarson]

And even the co-op mode has a coherent story. It's a direct sequel to Portal 2's events. It's told mostly in the background though, so you have to pay attention.