Miracle or coincidence?

[Flyndaran]

Uh oh. I think we may have subtly different definition of coincidence.

[BroomJockey]

Uh oh. I think we may have subtly different definition of coincidence.

Well, mine is "two events occur at the same time, and have no bearing on each others outcomes." No weighting of the events. Whether one is a "valid" action or not, it's still an event or action. Prayer is an action. Thus, the occurrence of prayer in the vicinity of healing would be a coincidence. Action A did not influence Action B.

[Slytovhand]

I'll weigh in with the confusing...

Jung postulated the concept of 'Synchronicity'... two apparently unrelated events, yet somehow having a connection which is not apparent in the material world. The example he used (IIRC) was a crow/raven (traditional symbol of death) landing on the window sill, and taking that as an omen of someone (uncle, again IIRC) dying. And yes, person did die within a 'reasonable' time frame (hours - or less).

This is the concept of omens, prophecy, magic and the like.

If, say, I 'cast a spell' to make something happen (eg, I need a place to live) and then, within 2 hours, I'm offered a place to live by a complete stranger, is that coincidence, miracle, or is there some form of (real) magic at work?

(and I'm using that example, because that is exactly what did happen many years ago).

Similarly, last Thursday (or was it Wednesday.. losing track of time here...), I was on Facebook and had just hit 'compose' to send a message to a friend of mine - when she sends me an sms. Sure, happens lots of times. Later that same day, I'm walking down the beach to the cafe, and I decide I should really drop a line to a mate of mine whom I haven't contacted in any way shape or form to for... I'm thinking over a year, really... not in any meaningful way. So, I'm thinking I should check my phone to see if I've got his number, and lo and behold - he rings... time difference? About 3 minutes.

Yep, these 'coincidences' happen all the time.... which is why I don't believe coincidence is so accidental... thus, I have some of the beliefs I do.


Miracles? Sure, why not? (but... let's not go overboard, and let's not think we already know why... pagans can effectively explain a lot more weird stuff in the universe than christians can)

[muses_nightmare]

My first thought wasn't miracle necessarily, but that they were praying to the spirit of someone who has passed on, to the "blessed dead" or Akhu.

But I do think it's at least partially a coincidence, some people do heal more quickly and cleanly than others.

[Flyndaran]

A miracle is something impossible like stoppin the sun in the sky, raising the dead, etc.
Healing faster than average is not impossible. It happens all the time. Stupid coincidences happen all the time.
There was a guy struck by lightning seven times, once while indoors.
Life is too short for everything to average out.

[PepperElf]

it could have worked.

i'm reminded of my Mom actually.


she was in the hospital for surgery and she just wasn't feeling good afterwards. She literally said, at that point she didn't care if she lived or died because it felt that horrible.

A priest was making his rounds and stopped in to visit and she asked for the "Anointing of the sick" rights. These use to be called "Last Rights" but it was decided they could be given to anyone in need of healing.

Afterwards, she said she felt better.

The next day the priest came back to see how she was doing and literally said, it was like looking at a different woman. Her response was that it was the Anointing of the Sick that made the difference.

[Ghel]

Here's the issue in this discussion (or what I think it is, anyway): how do we define "miracle"? Is it something that goes against physics as we know it? Something we thought was impossible? Or is it God interfering directly in somebody's life? I think in this story, the fellow and his family would accept the latter definition. Was the guy's recovery impossible? No. But it was incredibly unlikely. The odds were stacked against him, let's say. The family believes that their god intervened directly on their behalf to help the fellow heal. That, to them, is a miracle. To those who do not share their beliefs, it is not. It is simply a case of someone with unusual healing qualities, and though it is outside the norm, it is not totally unheard of.

[Boozy]

Here's the issue in this discussion (or what I think it is, anyway): how do we define "miracle"? Is it something that goes against physics as we know it? Something we thought was impossible? Or is it God interfering directly in somebody's life?

For something to qualify as a miracle in my mind, it would have to fly in the face of all known science.

Someone recovering from a presumed terminal illness doesn't count, since there is nothing physically impossible about a body's immune system rallying, no matter how rare or unlikely.

[Mr Slugger]

how do we define "miracle"?

See I think there's two definitions of miracle there's the event types and there's the moreso luck types. I mean if a statue of mary was to weep and there was no way to explain it then it's a religious miracle. Someone gets stabbed through their body with a shovel and it misses every major organ that's a miracle to me too. But a different type.

And that's the way I look at it. Now in this person's case. I mean it's probably luck.

As far as prayer goes. I'm one of those that believes while there might not be a god, there is a higher power, and where that power comes from I have no clue. And for people that dismiss prayer as something that helps honestly can they really prove that? Now honestly, and because of my beliefs I don't think god answered their prayers. However who can really say that their prayers didn't help? Maybe on some level they help heal him, maybe it was him on some level of consciousness knowing that they were there, and that gave him the strength come back, and maybe he was just a fighter. I dunno honestly, but I think for them if they want to believe it's a miracle then let them believe it is.

[Ghel]

For something to qualify as a miracle in my mind, it would have to fly in the face of all known science.

I completely agree. In fact, I would go a step farther. If something happens that is outside of all known science, that simply means that we have something new to discover. Or it's a fraud. Either way, we have learned something about the world we live in.

[Flyndaran]

I completely agree. In fact, I would go a step farther. If something happens that is outside of all known science, that simply means that we have something new to discover. Or it's a fraud. Either way, we have learned something about the world we live in.

Yep. If something exists, then it can be studied by scientific methods.
Prayer has been repeatedly shown to have no positive effect whatsoever. As long as everyone admits that simple fact, then they can faith thier way around the world all they like for all I care.

[Slytovhand]

Prayer has been repeatedly shown to have no positive effect whatsoever. As long as everyone admits that simple fact, then they can faith thier way around the world all they like for all I care.

I'd just like to throw in, prayer has also been repeatedly show to have a positive effect...

Just depends on who's doing the research...

[Flyndaran]

I'd just like to throw in, prayer has also been repeatedly show to have a positive effect...

Just depends on who's doing the research...

All those studies had so many scientific incompetencies that they became insults to intelligence.
What's funny was the one that indicated that prayers had a negative effect even on those not knowing that they were being prayed for.
If the effect exists then it is too small to measure and therefore ignorable.

[Slytovhand]

All those studies had so many scientific incompetencies that they became insults to intelligence.
What's funny was the one that indicated that prayers had a negative effect even on those not knowing that they were being prayed for.
If the effect exists then it is too small to measure and therefore ignorable.

No - it means all possible variables haven't been accounted for.. something which, in this sort of situation, would be impossible to account for scientifically... unless, of course, you're going to find a few thousand people willing to put themselves into a terminal illness and see which of those survives... and see if they fare better than a control group.

No??

I thought not.

[Flyndaran]

No - it means all possible variables haven't been accounted for.. something which, in this sort of situation, would be impossible to account for scientifically... unless, of course, you're going to find a few thousand people willing to put themselves into a terminal illness and see which of those survives... and see if they fare better than a control group.

No??

I thought not.

Just using a large sample size will factor out all variables but prayer. If it didn't then science wouldn't work, and that's just silly.
The studied sick people with prayer, without, knowing and not knowing about it. There was no statistically significant difference between prayer and non prayer groups. The previoulsy mentioned bit was in the statistically insignificant part, but still funny.