Westboro Church Group.

[Skunkle]

Exactly. The quiet Christians don't get the press.

There's a saying that's been taken as gospel by more than a few celebrities of various kinds, basically stating that there's no such thing as "good" or "bad" publicity, there's only publicity. That is also, to a degree, what PETA seems to do, eschewing actually getting anything done in exchange for getting notoriety.

I figure Phelps, if he DOES believe what he says/does, figures that getting notoriety helps his cause. At the same time, the fact that he's yet not open to new members (as far as I know) tells me he's not advertising for new recruits - he's warning the sinners that his group of saved are on the march and comin' for you.

What I do wonder is who he thinks will commit the violence he advocates against gays? Unless he's hooking up with the Watchmen On The Walls...

[Mytical]

You'd be surprised. The same people that a politician can convince that "X Immigrant is your problem!" ((Lets go over this shall we? "Irish are stealing your jobs! Blacks are stealing your jobs! Etc")) are the type that can be scared into attacking gays. Fear can make people irrational, and some people are good at scaring people. Also, because somebody else 'scared' them into doing it, they don't have to take the blame for their action. People don't like to accept responsibility either.

Its a powerful combination. Fear, and blame shifting. Worse, it only has to happen a couple of times. Then reprisals start happening. Then escalates, and soon the original person has what they wanted. People turning to them to 'protect' them.

Ignorance makes people easy to manipulate, unfortunately. For all the information available out there, there are still way too many people who just don't do their own research. Because 'its to hard'. They would rather their politicians or religious leader..or union organizers..or lawyers...etc do the thinking for them.

[Skunkle]

True. The Watchmen On The Walls I mentioned are a Ukranian Christian group who push the message that not only does God advocate killing homosexuals, but that they (this group themselves) should do it. I mean, go out and murder 'em. Almost more frightening.

And yeah, Westboro are probably hoping others will do their dirty work for them, which is another vote in my opinion for Phelps knowing he's doing evil.

[Skunkle]

Interesting note from Wikipedia that Westboro considers Barack Obama the antichrist, and considers him to be in an unholy trinity with satan and the current Pope, who they consider to be the false prophet.

Surprisingly, he may not be on Obama for his race: Phelps used to champion civil rights cases and work with black people, so it seems. He IS disbarred, I see.

[Ipecac Drano]

Though I am still waiting for a religion to explain why theirs is right and others wrong (without saying because this person or this book said so), and answer all my questions to my liking..I can say this...

I've heard many Xtians tell me how the people at the church down the street got it wrong. They wouldn't be vicious and say that the other congregation is going to Hell, but they would state their reasons either matter-of-factly or with some amusement in their tone. My favorite has always been some Protestants claiming that Catholics are not Xtians.

95% of all the Christians I have ever talked to are rational, reasonable human beings with good hearts. Unfortunately the 5% are the ones that get the press and attention. It's like at a restaurant. Do you notice the 15 kids being nice and behaved..or the 2 that are screaming/yelling etc? Sadly, people pay more attention to the 2.

95% of the Xtians I talk to are rational, reasonable human beings with good hearts, but when I get into deep discussions about religion I see a different side to them.

I may not believe as they believe, but I respect their right to believe as they want to believe. My nature is that I question everything, even question the questioning of everything..but that is my issue..not theirs

It's their issue, too.

[Mytical]

Oddly enough, the ones I talk religion with (and philosophy), are awesome. Sure the debates can get heated, but sometimes that just makes it interesting.

Little background here, though I haven't for awhile do to having a lot less time I volunteer from time to time at a soup kitchen. It's ran by a preacher, and his congregation help him. We've had some interesting discussions afterward .

[Ipecac Drano]

Oddly enough, the ones I talk religion with (and philosophy), are awesome. Sure the debates can get heated, but sometimes that just makes it interesting.

Little background here, though I haven't for awhile do to having a lot less time I volunteer from time to time at a soup kitchen. It's ran by a preacher, and his congregation help him. We've had some interesting discussions afterward .

It depends on what questions one asks them.

[Skunkle]

People are welcome to call my faith irrational, but faith really is about believing in something without a shred of hard evidence - and yet still believing it. I make no excuses about that. Generally, though, I prefer to avoid discussions of religion or politics except with people I know very well already, as I find it tends to end in arguments. I don't enjoy arguments, so I try to nip them in the bud *before* they start.

But then, my views on faith and religion might make many average Christians raise their eyebrows.

[Boozy]

People are welcome to call my faith irrational, but faith really is about believing in something without a shred of hard evidence - and yet still believing it.

Hooray! Finally someone who gets it.

I don't understand why someone would feel the need to defend their faith. It's called "faith" for a reason. It doesn't have to be scientific, and shouldn't factor into scientific discussions.

"Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's."

For the record, I'm not Christian. I'm not anything, really.

[Hyena Dandy]

95% of the Xtians I talk to are rational, reasonable human beings with good hearts, but when I get into deep discussions about religion I see a different side to them.

Perhaps, Ipecac, that is because your style of discussion is so disrespectful. Maybe being Christian isn't the problem, its how you talk to them. Nobody likes to be disrespected.

[McDreidel09]

A handful of Bible passages don't cut it for me, when far more passages mention other sins; unless they're taking Sodom and Gomorrah as proof? I'm not convinced of that one; I figure that was more about promiscuity than homosexuality, but I could be wrong.

The reason for the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah had nothing to do about sex. It was about hospitality. In that time and place, one was expected to take in people who came to their door. However, a law was passed in Sodom and Gomorrah that said that no strangers were to be taken in. This angered God and then the story continues from there.

The reason people say that it is about homosexuality is because of the whole "Let us see these men so that we may know them" thing.

My intro to Gay Studies was amazing for this. =D

[Ipecac Drano]

Originally Posted by Skunkle
People are welcome to call my faith irrational, but faith really is about believing in something without a shred of hard evidence - and yet still believing it.

Hooray! Finally someone who gets it.

I got it a long time ago and I'm sure others had, too.

I don't understand why someone would feel the need to defend their faith. It's called "faith" for a reason. It doesn't have to be scientific, and shouldn't factor into scientific discussions.

Nobody is attacking their faith; I'm just curious why they can't accept the tangible. I know that absence of evidence doesn't mean evidence of absence, but why go through the trouble of believing in something that has nothing pointing to it? It doesn't just stop at the first step (believing); it goes on from there; to where people have to ignore established facts in order to make their "vision" believable to them, and to others.

And, by the way, Dandy,before you judge me, my face-to-face discussions with Xtians never get to the point of my saying that.

Perhaps, Ipecac, that is because your style of discussion is so disrespectful.

Yeah, asking a question that can't be answered could be perceived as such.

Maybe being Christian isn't the problem, its how you talk to them.

Nobody said that being Xtian is the problem in the discussions I had mentioned to Mytical. Plus, I just ask them questions in an polite enough manner.

Nobody likes to be disrespected.

That was unnecessary...

[Andara Bledin]

Nobody is attacking their faith; I'm just curious why they can't accept the tangible.

I have no difficulties accepting the tangible. In fact, nothing about my faith contradicts anything that science has come up with, and yet I still get mocked merely for having faith at all.

And, by the way, Dandy,before you judge me, my face-to-face discussions with Xtians never get to the point of my saying that.

There's a lot in the way you posture yourself that can easily be seen as offensive, regardless of your intent.

Take, for example, your insistence on spelling it as Xtian instead of Christian. What is your reason for doing so?

It would be disingenuous, at best, to claim to not understand that a large number of Christians find it offensive, despite it's origins.

^-.-^

[Hyena Dandy]

I have no difficulties accepting the tangible. In fact, nothing about my faith contradicts anything that science has come up with, and yet I still get mocked merely for having faith at all.

Neither do I. I think it would be ridiculous to deny something that is evident because of your faith. I have never had what I believe disproved.

And by the way, Ipecac, why not? Are people on forums not worthy of the courtesy you'd give someone in person because you can't see our faces? I suppose its easy to forget that the people on computers are just as much people as theones in person.

[Ipecac Drano]

I have no difficulties accepting the tangible. In fact, nothing about my faith contradicts anything that science has come up with, and yet I still get mocked merely for having faith at all.

What I meant by that is finding comfort, solace, whatever, in the tangible.

There's a lot in the way you posture yourself that can easily be seen as offensive, regardless of your intent.

All I do is ask.

Take, for example, your insistence on spelling it as Xtian instead of Christian. What is your reason for doing so? It would be disingenuous, at best, to claim to not understand that a large number of Christians find it offensive, despite it's origins.

No, it wouldn't be disingenuous. You may know of a few who, for some reason, find it offensive, but I haven't encountered any who find it as such. In fact, I had a discussion with a Catholic monsignor who said it's been around since earlier times and had appeared in some sacred texts.

The X is the Christian shorthand for Christ and has been used by the Catholic Church for more than 17 centuries. In fact, the Roman Emperor Constantine (ca. 327 c.e.) used it on the shields of his legions to identify them as a Christian army.

By declaring that some may be offended "despite its origins", maybe they should try a little understanding toward the roots of that term instead of objecting to it regardless.