has religion become about hate?

[smileyeagle1021]

Well yeah, God knows everything already so what's the point in hoping *he* won't find out?

I'd be very interested in hearing about this: the closest I've ever found was the destruction of a city where they tried to gang-rape angels, which obviously is completely different than consensual sex between people who have promised their lives to each other.

not only that, but traditionally angels have been viewed to be genderless... how can we judge the assailant's sexuality when they attacked being without gender?

[MergedLoki]

Religion as a whole... NO (i'm not religious in the slightest and am 110% against MOST religious and ANY organized religion)

but... that doesn't mean 'oh im a catholic fuck you jews' is the instant thought to ANY cahtolic etc.

I think i'ts just hate filled people using ANY tool or excuse they can think of to justify THEIR hate to themselves and to justify it to like minded individuals.

I've got friends in tons of differnt religions (prodestant, catholic, wicca, pagan, etc. etc.) and none of them are crazy extreme to the point they alienate anyone else or get pissy with anyone for not sharing their views etc.

Hell my prodestant friend (him and me have had many a drunken argument about religion) has said to me 'Loki i'll tell you the kind of christian I am... the kind that fully aceepts that Jesus is a zombie" (he's come back from the dead and wants your soul)

[Racket_Man]

I think i'ts just hate filled people using ANY tool or excuse they can think of to justify THEIR hate to themselves and to justify it to like minded individuals.

)

here is the crutial statement of the WHOLE discussion. God may or may nothave created religion (there is the DISTINCT possiblity that HUMANs created religion for whatever reason ie ignorance about the working of the physical world around them).

most human religions preach love tolerance,etc. but as human history show time and time again we twist and pervert those original teachings so far out of line it is sickening.

one large example is when the white Europeans came to the Americas, they marveled at the "spirituallity" of the native peoples. they stood in awe that the natives were more spiritual than they were. some of the Euro[pean went off to live with the natives to study their culture and NEVER wanted to come back to "civilization".

but wait the Europeans wanted LAND and RICHES and possibly SLAVES. OK now they called them "savages" and "beasts" and "sinners" and Pagans and Ifeidels so they could do what they wanted ie. trick the natives, outright steal from them, treat them anyway they wanted, kill them, butilize them for fun, destroy any "non-Christian blasphonmous or heritical" culture. Literally view the natives as not human or sub human (another theme thoughout history)

I have no problem with religion or spirituallity. it is just the people who twist and pervert the message to their own means to an end.

[Flyndaran]

...
most human religions preach love tolerance,etc. but as human history show time and time again we twist and pervert those original teachings so far out of line it is sickening.

...I have no problem with religion or spirituallity. it is just the people who twist and pervert the message to their own means to an end.

I do have a problem with group delusions. Most religions have partly a tolerance message, but it is drowned out by all the exceptions on who you get to hate and kill. Trying to separate them is a fool's errand. No religion only has peace. They all have hate and willful ignorance of science and reality.
I hope for a day, when humanity outgrows this genetic mental illness. We may actually get a culture of love and acceptance, but it won't have anything to do with "spirituality".

[Ree]

Something that has been bothering me for a while now, but why does religion now seem to be about hating the right people? In christianity it's about hating the gays and the muslims and the atheists,

I was born and raised Christian, and I don't ever recall being told to hate anyone.

It's true that in my church, certain things are considered sinful, such as homosexuality and atheism, but the teaching that I was given has always been to love the person in spite of the "sin".

My own personal feelings conflict quite a bit with my teachings when it comes to homosexuality.

Having a nephew who is gay, and having watched him grow up, I know that he has not chosen to be gay, and I have a hard time considering him a "sinner".

He is one of the most socially aware and kindhearted people I know.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Same here about the "hate" part. I have never been told to hate anyone or any group.

In fact, I've been told that to hate another person is wrong and something to be struggled with. It's human, yes, but not Christian.

Don't confuse a religion with the flawed beings that try (and sometimes fail) to follow it.

As for the gay part, it's never come up in the context of my own religious life, actually. I was in a Baptist church as a child because my cousins down here in SC went to Baptist churches. My own parents did not attend church. There wasn't much talk about homosexuality when I was a child in church. At least, not to me. When I became old enough that I realized that different denominations have different teachings, I was old enough to switch churches, and switch I did. To a particularly liberal Episcopalean one where homosexuality is not an issue.

So I've never even been taught that it's wrong in a religious context. And, like Ree, I know that homosexuals do not choose to be gay any more than I choose to be straight. They are God's beloved, just as anyone else is.

And also, like Ree, I have a friend in the SCA that is the most Christ-like person I have ever met in my life. And he is gay (and mostly naked most of the time). If you were to run in the same circles I run in, hundreds of people would say the same. The man shines with a rare light.

[kiwi]

And that's the beauty of free will.

The vast majority of religions are salvation based, nirvana or heaven or whatever you want to call it, the doctrine states that if you live a certain way you will receive a happy after life.
If you choose to break those rules you will have a bad after life in hell or outer darkness or be reincarnated as a roach.

When the major break in Christianity occurred (and Im using Christianity as an example because thats what I was raised with), there were a few major differences in the doctrine that caused the breakaway, predestination being one of them. Catholics believed in free will (if you follow these rules and obey/believe you will go to heaven) and Protestants believed in predestination (god has already decided your fate). Even in the christian religion there are different beliefs about what predestination means. Calvinists literally believe that God has already decided your fate, Lutherans believe that only Christians are predestined for heaven.

So for some people there is no such thing as free will, the laws of the church state it does not exsist.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."

Bolding mine.

I don't believe religions overtly teach people to hate, but they do prey upon a humans natural instinct to shun the "other". If you believe something different to me so therefore one of us is wrong and that better not be me! If they teach that one way is correct and the only way to salvation, then all other ways must be wrong. That's why so many religions call themselves the one true church or the offer the one true way to God.

Thankfully some religions teach tolerance towards other religions but not all do. Even if they teach moral superiority I would hope that most churches are moderate and tolerant in their teachings.
Fundamentalist christian churches shouldn't be held up as an archetype of Christianity anymore than Islamic terrorists should be held up as an archetype of your average follower of Islam.

[Flyndaran]

...
Thankfully some religions teach tolerance towards other religions but not all do. Even if they teach moral superiority I would hope that most churches are moderate and tolerant in their teachings.
Fundamentalist christian churches shouldn't be held up as an archetype of Christianity anymore than Islamic terrorists should be held up as an archetype of your average follower of Islam.

The minority religions have to espouse tolerance otherwise the biggies would smash them in a nanosecond.
People are people. They need to feel holier than thou in a literal sense. Individuals may actually be good, but groups of people and so religions will never be anything but destructive forces of nature.
I am a good person. I didn't need religion to be kind to others why do "you"? If you don't, then there really is no point to it.

[Ree]

I am a good person. I didn't need religion to be kind to others why do "you"? If you don't, then there really is no point to it.

Ummmm....I don't know about you, but that's not at all what I get out of my religion.
I can be kind and good whether I belong to a religion or not, but that's not the point of it at all for me.
There's a sense of community in my church. It's very far from exclusion of others.
To those who choose not to follow an organized religion, however, it may seem that way.

I can worship God sitting in my chair at home, but in attending a religious service, I am taking my prayers and concerns and offering them up, knowing that everyone else is there doing the same. In that way, there is an entire community offering up prayers for me, and I, in turn am offering up my prayers for them.

So, instead of sitting alone, focusing on my own pain and feeling helpless, I am then turning my thoughts outward to others while also gaining some hope for myself.

[Flyndaran]

Ummmm....I don't know about you, but that's not at all what I get out of my religion.
...
I can worship God sitting in my chair at home, but in attending a religious service, I am taking my prayers and concerns and offering them up, knowing that everyone else is there doing the same. In that way, there is an entire community offering up prayers for me, and I, in turn am offering up my prayers for them.

So, instead of sitting alone, focusing on my own pain and feeling helpless, I am then turning my thoughts outward to others while also gaining some hope for myself.

So you need religion to feel part of a group? My girlfriend gets that by playing D&D.

[Ree]

So you need religion to feel part of a group? My girlfriend gets that by playing D&D.

Way to twist things to try to make your point and attempt to belittle my own beliefs because you don't get it.

I'm sorry you don't understand it.

I don't need my religion to feel part of a group. That's just one of the nice things about belonging to an organized religion.
There is a sense of community, but I certainly don't need to belong to a religion to experience that.

I have my family, the service club I belong to, my circle of friends, and many other things to give me a feeling of community.
I would imagine an insular, fairly antisocial type person would have difficulty understanding that aspect.

I don't need it to feel I belong. It's just nice to know I have that, though.

[Flyndaran]

Way to twist things to try to make your point and attempt to belittle my own beliefs because you don't get it.

I'm sorry you don't understand it.
...
I don't need it to feel I belong. It's just nice to know I have that, though.

Then that means you didn't answer my question, but deflected it.
What do you need from religion?
And what's wrong with D&D?

[Ree]

Then that means you didn't answer my question, but deflected it.
What do you need from religion?
And what's wrong with D&D?

Why do you feel the need to belittle religion? I know you don't understand it, and for some people it's easier to mock and ridicule than to try and understand.

What's really so wrong with the community aspect of organized religion?

Why should it be better for a person to forgo religion and join a D&D group?

I don't understand why that bothers you so much.

I have a belief in a loving God who listens to my prayers and answers them, even if they aren't answered in the way that I would want. I believe in a God who has a plan for my life even if I don't understand that plan.
It is my belief in God that got me through a pretty crappy childhood.
It was my faith in God that helped me through some serious situations in my personal life.

It was my belief in God that brought me through the past year or more and kept me going after losing my husband very suddenly.

His funeral was held in the little country church that has always been a large focus of my life. I was surrounded by people with whom I have spent a large part of my life sitting in those same pews, offering up our prayers together and receiving Christ through the sacrament of Communion together.
The service was scripture filled and very spiritual.
I made sure of that.
Planning that service gave me a sense of comfort. Through my grief, I read through many different scripture passages to find the perfect ones to give me a feeling of hope that I was not alone, that this was part of His plan, and that my husband was now free from earthly pain and was with God.

I heard from someone who attended the funeral with a group of her coworkers. They were acquaintances related to the foster care that I do. I don't even know what their own personal beliefs are, or whether they follow my religion, or any religion for that matter. I do know they told this person, "I have been to a lot of funerals, but that had to have been one of the most comforting and beautiful funeral services I have ever attended."

My belief that there is a God watching over me keeps me going and gets me through the hard stuff.

For me to feel that my husband had simply ceased to exist at all, and there was no afterlife or God to keep him would have been devastating.

If it bothers you that my belief in what you see as an imaginary being kept me sane, then that would be your own issues. I am certainly comfortable with the fact and really don't feel I have to apologize for that.

[smileyeagle1021]

Well Ree (and Flyn), if it says anything about the church, my mother no longer considers herself Methodist. She still follows Christ but she refuses to affiliate with a church. This came about after discovering the Methodist Church (Open Hearts, Open Minds, Open Doors... yeah, bullshit), turned me away in Salt Lake (which she was willing to write off as one bad apple) and then later the involvement of Methodist churches in Maine participating in Yes on 1.
A year ago my mother would refuse to accept that a church could be hateful... now she refuses to affiliate with them because of the hatred shared by mainstream christianity in the United States (or at least Maine, California, Nevada, and Utah).
That said, she, like I, still have and never will lose faith in the Almighty. Membership in a religion is no indication of a person's faith in God, though it may be an indicator of what type of person they are (very few people who are active in the Mormon church are accepting of gays, as one example).

[Ree]

A year ago my mother would refuse to accept that a church could be hateful... now she refuses to affiliate with them because of the hatred shared by mainstream christianity in the United States (or at least Maine, California, Nevada, and Utah).

I can certainly understand that this has been your experience, and I'm so sorry for that.

I guess I have been fortunate that I have not seen that in my own church.