question re: discussing religion

[smileyeagle1021]

OK, so something that has been bothering me for a while. My mother has been pressuring me to become active in a church, any church will do, as long as it is a Christian church. There has been an underlying theme that while she thinks any church will do, she really wants me to become active in the Methodist church, which is the church I grew up in and she still belongs to. She thinks that because of the church's policy of Open Hearts, Open Minds, Open Doors that I can be truly accepted there. The problem is that she is a true believer that it is more than a policy, but a main tenet of the faith. She cannot comprehend a Methodist being a bigot. More to the point, she cannot fathom the possibility that someone wouldn't be welcomed with open arms, for that would be against one of the tenets of the faith to be accepting.
So, here is the quandary... at one point I was trying to be active in the Methodist church, even to the point that I was volunteering at UMCOR (United Methodist Committee on Relief), which while not exclusively Methodist is supposed to follow all the same tenets and policies as the Methodist church. One day while I was volunteering there the conversation turned to where we had grown up, I had mentioned that I grew up in Nevada. One of the other volunteers asked if I knew how to play any of the casino games, I answered that I was guilty of playing more than a few hands of blackjack. At that point the head of the Salt Lake UMCOR depot made the comment "well, no one's perfect... besides, there are worse things than being a gambler, you could be gay after all". A clearer message could not be sent, you are not welcome here.

Here is the problem, if I tell my mother that, tell her that indeed the Methodist church does not always hold true to that social creed to have Open Hearts, Open Minds, Open Doors, it would be a big blow to her faith. However, if I don't tell her she will never back off her pressuring me to try "just one more time" to become active in a christian church and me not becoming active in her church again will just be me being belligerent. So, what do I do, do I damage her faith but give her a straight answer as to why I'm not going back into the church, or do I protect her faith which she holds dear but have her thinking that I'm just being belligerent with the stakes being my soul?
Neither option has a good outcome and I can't think of a way out.

[BroomJockey]

My opinion? Crush her. If her faith is God is so weak that it can be damaged by a church comprised of people not being perfect, then it's not a faith worth having.

[Pedersen]

I've found myself in a similar situation, smiley, and so far I've only managed to put off the inevitable.

My mom is looking forward to heaven in some ways. She's going to get to see her father and her brother again, and she misses them immensely.

My problem is different, in that I do not believe in Christianity at all. I believe there is something out there that can (and at least sometimes does) have an impact on our lives, but I know that Christianity (and Judaism and Islam and any other monotheistic religion with an omnipotent/omniscient all-creator) is false. Cannot be true (logically speaking, it's an impossibility, did a thread about it related to free will here).

If I show her this falsehood, and make her actually see it, then something she has clung to as something she can actually look forward to will be destroyed. Instead, she will have to face the fact that her loved ones are gone forever, and she will never see them again (at least not in the fashion she has believed in).

Do I destroy her faith? Do I take away a bright spot for a person suffering from clinical depression? Or do I let her have this delusion, and simply say "Sorry, not interested"? So far, I've been managing to go with letting her have the delusion. It makes her happy, and all the effect it has on me is that, on occasion, I have to listen to her talking about how wonderful church/God/Jesus is. I can put up with that for her sake.

I'll admit it's hard not to show her how wrong she is, but I just remind myself it does not harm me, and makes her feel better about the world. After that, I bite my tongue and smile for her sake.

Oh, and to avoid derailing the thread entirely with people telling me how wrong I am about god/etc, please do so in this thread: "Critical Logic Failure".

[smileyeagle1021]

My opinion? Crush her. If her faith is God is so weak that it can be damaged by a church comprised of people not being perfect, then it's not a faith worth having.

not her faith in God, that I doubt she will ever lose, but her faith in the church, which has meant so much to her these last couple of years with all the support they provided while she was dealing with my grandma's declining health and death, her own cancer, and a few legal battles. She knows that the church isn't perfect, but I think she needs to, for her own reasons, believe that the church truly does welcome everyone with welcome arms... that what she received truly is open to anyone.

[Slytovhand]

Ah! That explains why the Crit failure thread suddenly popped up again!

Smiley, the problem isn't one of faith in the church vs it's lack.

It's in being naive towards human beings.

'The church' and 'humans who go to church' are 2 completely different entities.

I think you can get away with it by saying that you have actually encountered people who are a part of that group who have specifically expressed ideologies that are actually in opposition to the tenets of the church... and that is why you are hesitant to go back there again. The 'church' and it's members aren't the same thing, thanks mum!

And then point out to her the differences between your situation, and hers.

Of course, it won't change the fact that she'll still want you to go there, but she might at least understand why you're hesitant... and thus, might lay off a bit....

Until then, go join a coven! They really will welcome you in! (but after that, you'll just need to put up with petty BS and egos)

[smileyeagle1021]

Until then, go join a coven! They really will welcome you in! (but after that, you'll just need to put up with petty BS and egos)

*nervous laughter* umm... funny you should mention that

[Slytovhand]

*nervous laughter* umm... funny you should mention that

Yes... you hinted at that.....

And, I do believe there's a thread regarding hints... hmmmmmm.......


(yes yes, pots and kettles and all that...)

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Smiley I'm not trying to convert you here, but if you are looking for a Christian church to attend, have you considered an Episcopal one?

I don't know if they are all as welcoming as mine is, but mine is pretty amazingly welcoming. That is the reason I chose it, because I saw how diverse the congregation was and how everyone was accepted. I'm sure there are others like it out there.

And I think the Lutherans are now also accepting gay clergy, if I'm not mistaken about that.

[Tanasi]

Smiley in referring to your OP are you absolutely sure that the gay comment wasn't just that person's opinion and not that particular church's opinion? If it was just the person don't loose your faith in the whole, after all one person doesn't the church make. If that particular church then isn't there another Methodist church you could attend? While I don't know from experience I've hear the Unitarians are all inclusive.

[smileyeagle1021]

Tanasi, I know it's not the official policy of the church, and it may or may not be the opinion of the majority of the congregation... but hearing it from someone of such prominense in the local authority structure makes it seem clear that I'm not going to expect a warm and open welcome.
And even if I am just overreacting and letting one person get to me... it still doesn't change the fact that it is the reason I stopped going and won't go back, nor the fact that it would take away from my mother's own experience in the church where she has known nothing but kindness and compassion.

[Kalli]

I truly don't want to offend anyone here, so if the following is out of line, have it deleted or whatever. But since Smiley is asking our opinions...


I could be totally wrong about what will make you happy, but my opinion is: Forget Christianity. Forget God, Church and all of that. Your life will be so much fuller and happier without it, especially if you are only going to follow that path to please somebody else, mother or not. There is no happiness in that life for you, only self-doubt.

I just cannot understand how a parent can put pressure on their child to live the life THEY want them to live like that. It's awful, and it creates a void or a feeling of failure for you, which will never go away even if you DO do what pleases her, because after you start going to church it will be something else, and something else, etc.

Look inside yourself and ask if YOU, not your family or obligations, want to have a relationship with God. If you don't, don't, and never let anybody guilt you into anything ever again. If you do, do it whatever way YOU are comfortable with, whether this involves going to church or not. (but STILL DO NOT LET ANYBODY GUILT YOU INTO ANYTHING EVER AGAIN).

Again, feel free to ignore me if this isn't helpful for you.

[crashhelmet]

"The biggest cause of atheism today is Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips then deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world finds simply unbelievable."

- Brennan Manning

To paraphrase/quote again "Don't let one bad apple spoil the whole bunch."

Don't let this man keep you from fulfilling what you want to do, if it is in fact what you want to do. As others have said, if you want to be involved, then be involved. If it's a matter of being comfortable, then take it slow or even do as your mother suggested and choose a different church.

If it's something that you don't want to do, then you're going to need to sit down and talk with your mother and work that out.

The important thing in all of this is getting what you want out of it. There are those that will try and convince you to become a Christian and there are those that will try and convince you to be an Atheist. Ignore the both of them and follow what you believe. Both can be just as much of an irritating asshole, in my opinion. No one has the right to tell you what you can and cannot believe.

I am a Christian, but regardless if you find solace in praying to God, Big Bird, or nothing at all, you still have my support.

CH

[Flyndaran]

"The biggest cause of atheism today is Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips then deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world finds simply unbelievable."

- Brennan Manning
...

CH

Oh lovely, another of those if they aren't my kind of christian then they aren't "real" christians nonsense.
If someone calls' themself a christian, then they are. You don't get to pick and choose who is a real believer any more than I get to choose some jerk atheists as not "real" atheists because they believe in no gods but they do in the tooth fairy.

Religion is a genetic mental illness that I hope to one day be evolved out of our genome.
Yes, you can be a wonderful good person believing in god like my father was. You can also be a good wonderful person believing in the tooth fairy. That doesn't magically make them true.

[crashhelmet]

Oh lovely, another of those if they aren't my kind of christian then they aren't "real" christians nonsense.
If someone calls' themself a christian, then they are. You don't get to pick and choose who is a real believer any more than I get to choose some jerk atheists as not "real" atheists because they believe in no gods but they do in the tooth fairy.

Religion is a genetic mental illness that I hope to one day be evolved out of our genome.
Yes, you can be a wonderful good person believing in god like my father was. You can also be a good wonderful person believing in the tooth fairy. That doesn't magically make them true.

Once again you're blinded by your hatred of religions (or is it just Christianity?) to see the point of that quote.

It has nothing to do with being "my kind of Christian." It has to do with the hypocrites within the Faith that tell you to do one thing and then do the opposite.

As Smiley pointed out, the Methodist Church is one of the most open and accepting of the Protestant denominations. For someone that is high up within that Church to bash gays is hypocritical and, to tie it directly into the quote, is driving (has driven?) Smiley away from it.

CH

[Flyndaran]

Once again you're blinded by your hatred of religions (or is it just Christianity?) to see the point of that quote.

It has nothing to do with being "my kind of Christian." It has to do with the hypocrites within the Faith that tell you to do one thing and then do the opposite.

As Smiley pointed out, the Methodist Church is one of the most open and accepting of the Protestant denominations. For someone that is high up within that Church to bash gays is hypocritical and, to tie it directly into the quote, is driving (has driven?) Smiley away from it.

CH

Calling anyone a false believer is wrong. They have just as much right to claim belief in magical books as you. Saying that they fail to live up to what they preach is simply saying that they fail at their version of perfection. Wow, news at 11.
You turn around and claim that to be a Methodist you have to believe in everything that group usually preaches. Wow, again, people can believe things contrary to others in their group, news at 11.

I'm an atheist, and many of us are quite logical and rational. Should I call one a hypocrital false atheist if he believes in leprachauns?