This is why people hate Christianity and Christians...

[Mytical]

Hmm, then I am most likely arrogent. When I was young, I was rather..intense about my faith in god and christ. I knew every verse by heart, or just about. My faith was shaken, however, when I didn't realise to seperate the people from the faith.

I was going to a church called Old Philedelphia (spelling? Been 20+ years). Part of the choir, even got to preach from time to time. There was a person in the church we all called Brother Joe (not to be confused with my actual brother who is named Joe). His wife left him and he ..fell..hard. Alcohol, jail, he was having a really hard time. He pulled his life back around and came back to church.

At the time there was also a woman who sort of 'ran things'. Even the Deacon (spelling?) gave her her way. She pretty much told everybody to 'turn their back' on brother Joe. They did, when he needed the church most. That shook my faith to its core. The god I knew would NEVER turn its back on somebody, especially somebody in such great need.

So yeah, I lost the faith and quit the church. Went the opposit way for awhile in rebellion..won't talk much about that...by the time I straightened out..I had studied quite a few religions and just didn't believe any one religion had it right. I still respect Christianity, and some of my greatest debates are with a priest who runs a place called "My fathers Kitchen" (A soup kitchen). We will yell, we will scream at each other, and then we will sit and have a cup of coffee .

You'd swear one minute we were the greatest of enemies and the next the best of friends. Which is how it should be. Seperate the argument from the person. Because you can learn a lot .. if you will only just listen.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

This entire discussion reminded me of a storyline that R. K. Milholland did in his Something Positive webcomic about three years ago. And one strip in particular :


Something Positive - October 19, 2006


"Never confuse the faith with the supposedly faithful."

It's a good message . . . and so are R. K. Milholland's comments at the bottom.

Thanks for posting that. I have seen this comic, and this installment of it, but not the comment at the bottom. He's right. Which is why a Christian should never be shy about telling people what they are.

I don't go around making sure to mention it, but as you see here, I will not talk around it. I am one of the few church goers in my circle of friends. I don't preach to anyone or hassle or judge anyone about that. We all respect each other.

This is why as a Christian, a person should not hide who they are, even in a hostile environment (such as this board can be sometimes). The loud, vocal ones might be the only ones some people notice. Let them notice you, too, that they can see firsthand. Testify with your life. Sure, no one is perfect and we all fall short of being good examples. But if you are trying to do your best, that is all you can do. Believe me, your best is probably better than some of these loud, vocal minority Christians, who are clearly doing their worst.

I know some Christians are not forthcoming about their faith because "everyone thinks all Christians are horrible people and I don't want them to think that about me." Well, maybe they wouldn't think that if ones that weren't horrible people but were embarassed into silence would swallow their fear and be that other Christian, the one who isn't horrible.

Jesus himself said it would not be an easy label to bear.

[Slytovhand]

This is why as a <insert religion or belief>, a person should not hide who they are, even in a hostile environment (such as this board can be sometimes). The loud, vocal ones might be the only ones some people notice. Let them notice you, too, that they can see firsthand. Testify with your life. Sure, no one is perfect and we all fall short of being good examples. But if you are trying to do your best, that is all you can do. Believe me, your best is probably better than some of these loud, vocal minority <insert religion or belief>, who are clearly doing their worst.

Edited for accuracy...

It doesn't really matter what the religion or belief, they all have good and bad points, and the good shouldn't be ashamed because of what the bad do... and if the bad do stuff, and people make comments deriding all people, then everyone should stand up and say otherwise (and let their actions be the benchmark!)

I'm pagan, and heard some really ignorant crap being sprouted... I've altered people's thinking on the subject

(btw, yes, I know RK, this thread just happens to be on Christians...)

[RecoveringKinkoid]

Yeah, it happens to be Christians in this discussion, but it doesn't just go for Christians. It goes for any group of people. It goes for Pagans. It goes for people of various ethnic groups.

It goes for people who like NASCAR and people who are in the SCA.

It just happens to be about Christians right now because people have decided that that particular little bit of bigotry is okay. But you get it. "Let your actions be your benchmark." Right on. I figure if someone wants to make a judgment call on me, and put all sorts of nasty lables all over me without even trying to figure out what I'm about, that is their problem, not mine. Because bigotry sucks.

A very good friend of mine, a woman who is one of those people who you realize your soul and their soul know each other from way back, gave me a beautiful compliment once. She told me I was the "most Pagan Christian she'd ever met." Yeah, she's a Pagan. It was a beautiful compliment and I was and am deeply honored.

[Flyndaran]

...
I'm pagan, and heard some really ignorant crap being sprouted... I've altered people's thinking on the subject

(btw, yes, I know RK, this thread just happens to be on Christians...)

When my christian friend found out about my pagan at the time girlfriend she had some seriously messed up ideas.
People can be good even if they believe evil things, and vice versa. The human mind is full of internal inconsistencies.

[guywithashovel]

This may be a little OT, but the person who started this thread is a Christian.

I just thought I would point that out, considering the accusations of this thread being used as justification for hatred against Christians.

[Ree]

This may be a little OT, but the person who started this thread is a Christian.

I just thought I would point that out, considering the accusations of this thread being used as justification for hatred against Christians.

Regardless of whether the OP is Christian, it was the title of the thread, "This is why people hate Christianity and Christians..." that validated the accusation.
In my opinion, it was saying that the hatred was justified because of morons such as those in the link.

[blas87]

I'm amazed, and not in a good way. And I'm disgusted at some of the brush painting some members have been doing about Catholics.

I'm not Catholic, and not a frequent church goer, heck I don't even pray before I eat, but I believe in God and try to be a good person and obey the commandments.

Ree has been taking some very un-necessary verbal bashings lately, and it's extremely uncalled for, in my opinion. I don't see how we're getting a healthy debate out of this when a few members just keep jumping in and Catholic bashing.

[Rapscallion]

It's no great secret that the catholic church has had problems with a number of bad people within its ranks. However, I found out from someone I trust that they had a relative who was particularly ... mentally challenged. In short, lazy, and to an extent that they were pretty much classified as 'unemployable' by the state and receiving benefit for it.

The catholic church has a programme to help counsel such people and get them back to work. You don't see that on the front of newspapers.

If we did, then it would mean society would be interested in reading such news. Good news and worthy deeds are rarely seen as selling newspapers.

We're to blame for their bad press, folks. Then we're chastising them for having bad press.

Rapscallion

[RecoveringKinkoid]

And I'd like to say that all this "well, Christians should speak up and condemn this stuff, then" is really, really rich.

We do condemn quite a bit of stuff most people find appalling. I have here and so does Ree and others.

And you see what happens to us as a result. We get pilloried for being members of "that awful group". People go into overdrive trying to prove we are just as bad as the people they are badmouthing.

I will keep saying "I am a Christian and I condemn blah blah horrible thing." But I will also, I feel sure, keep getting condemned by people with an axe to grind when I do.

I guess it comes with the territory.

[Slytovhand]

I'm sorry, but no! Those arguements just don't hold water!

I don't see any logic in saying "I choose to affiliate with group XYZ, even though I know their history has been guilty of ABC crimes to humanity - and still does condone some very questionable activities*". (sorry boys and girls, no condoms or sex education.. so all you poor Africans living in a high rate STD community - just don't do it!)

Let me draw an analogy to this very point. Pre-WWII, the Nationalist-Socialist party of Germany did some great things for the nation's economy and people's sense of pride. They bucked up against a completely stupid (retrospectively realised) set of resolutions that drove them into a depression. BUT.. because of what happened later, if you call yourself a Nazi now, you'll get flamed in any forum... and IIRC it's even illegal in some countries to proudly state that you are a neo-Nazi - even before you get to clarify it.

"I'm one of the 'good' ones" doesn't cut it... for any organisation.

You don't get to pick and choose the bits you like and reject the bits you don't. So, if you choose to be a part of a group, you do get tarred (and feathered) with both the good and the bad. Don't like the bad - don't join! If it's an official stance on something - if you don't agree with it - DON'T JOIN! I think it completely pointless to enter into a situation where a brush has been painted, and still someone decides they join and say "Oh, but I don't agree with that anyway" (or, a relationship with someone, and they then want to change them...).

Now, this thread just happens to be on Christianity - yet somehow it seems to be more about Catholocism (for some reason....??? ). The facts are that the official bodies of Catholocism does have a lot of history to answer for - and a lot of contemporary issues as well. If you're a part of that organisation, that brush will paint you as well... because it's a choice to be a part of it.

To mention a member of this board - Smiley didn't like his local church - so he left! Nothing stopping anyone else if they don't like what the official stance is on something...

AND... (when it comes to religion)... AND as Ree has said - her relationship with GOD is between her and GOD. But her relationship with an organisation... that's a little different if someone starts talking about that organisation.

And that's the difference... if 'Christianity' is being attacked - that's attacking an organisation - not your connection with your deity or beliefs!

[BlaqueKatt]

AND... (when it comes to religion)... AND as Ree has said - her relationship with GOD is between her and GOD. But her relationship with an organisation... that's a little different if someone starts talking about that organisation.

And that's the difference... if 'Christianity' is being attacked - that's attacking an organisation - not your connection with your deity or beliefs!

yup and per psalm 26:
4 I do not sit with deceitful men,
nor do I consort with hypocrites;

5 I abhor the assembly of evildoers
and refuse to sit with the wicked.

and Matthew 6

1"Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

2"So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 3But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.
Prayer
5"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.


technically the church is against the bible....

[Ree]

yup and per psalm 26:
4 I do not sit with deceitful men,
nor do I consort with hypocrites;

5 I abhor the assembly of evildoers
and refuse to sit with the wicked.

Matthew 9:9-13
As Jesus was walking along, he saw a man called Matthew sitting at the tax booth; and he said to him, ‘Follow me.’ And he got up and followed him.
And as he sat at dinner in the house, many tax-collectors and sinners came and were sitting with him and his disciples.
When the Pharisees saw this, they said to his disciples, ‘Why does your teacher eat with tax-collectors and sinners?’
But when he heard this, he said, ‘Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick.
Go and learn what this means, “I desire mercy, not sacrifice.” For I have come to call not the righteous but sinners.’

All people are sinners, based on the laws of Christianity.
I don't deny that there were some terrible deeds done in the name of God.

There are currently some things going on that many people object to and call persecution by the church.

People want to live lives of debauchery and have the church look the other way. When it doesn't, they cry bigotry and claim hypocrisy and accuse the followers of being judgmental and setting themselves up as prideful beings.

The world is changing, and people want the church to change with it, but why should the church lighten its stance on sin?
Is that not caving to the whims of the general public rather than remaining true to convictions?

The church's stand on homosexuality does trouble me.
I have a gay nephew whom I love dearly.
He is one of the most truly beautiful people I know. He has such a strong social conscience and a huge heart.
He embodies everything that is considered "Christian", but, according to the laws of the church, he is a sinner when he acts on his sexuality.
According to the church, though, we are all sinners when we act on our sexuality outside of the marriage bed.

I continue to hope that the church will look at its stand regarding homosexuality, but when I have read about its current view on this matter, it does make sense to me, and that helps me reconcile my feelings a bit.
I still pray that the church will someday change or lighten its laws in this area.

I am not proud of the past deeds of some in my church in the name of God.
They were not acting as God wished, though, and that is how I am able to move past that and deal with it. While some were misguided and committed atrocious acts in an effort to convert the sinful, there were countless other martyrs who went to their graves with forgiveness on their lips for those who were murdering them.

I realize I keep coming back to the Catholic church, but it's because I am Catholic and speak on my knowledge of what my church believes. It would be foolish of me to presume to speak for any other branch of Christianity when I am not familiar with all of their laws and rules and creeds.

In my church, the laws are made by men who have prayed to God for guidance. They are human, yes, and I don't deny that there may be some who put their personal feelings over the wishes of God, but I have faith that, in the end, God speaks through these men.

Call me naive and accuse me of wearing rose coloured glasses, but I call it faith and conviction in the higher power of God.

And that's the difference... if 'Christianity' is being attacked - that's attacking an organisation - not your connection with your deity or beliefs!

Read the title of the thread again.

"This is why people hate Christianity and Christians..."

As a Christian, that was attacking my connection with my God and my beliefs.

Perhaps I am comparing apples to oranges and muddying the waters, but an example of the misdeeds in secular areas and among secular organizations was used, so I was thinking about the example of slavery in the US.

At one time, many Americans owned slaves. It was perfectly acceptable to treat fellow human beings as subhuman, and for many years, black people did not have any rights in the US. They were forbidden from interracial relationships, and many were killed and imprisoned for those acts.
Eventually, things did change, but there is still a history of atrocities against fellow human beings in the US.

Does that mean, by calling yourself a "proud American," you are accepting responsibility for all those acts committed by proud Americans all those years ago, and even into the mid 20th century? In fact, bigotry and race discrimination still exists in some areas of the US.
Many people stand up against it, but many others look the other way.
Does that mean you are all lying down with dogs and letting evil triumph by being good men doing nothing?

Like I said, it may be apples and oranges here, but it was just a thought I had.

[BlaqueKatt]

According to the church, though, we are all sinners when we act on our sexuality outside of the marriage bed.

true, but then why are some churches/religious leaders working so hard to keep them as sinners?

And the other side to that argument-if all people tomorrow stopped committing any sins-would that make the death of Jesus in vain?

[Ree]

true, but then why are some churches/religious leaders working so hard to keep them as sinners?

I don't quite understand this. Are you saying they need to change their stand on what is considered a sin, or are you saying that they need to change their stand on who is allowed to be married. To counter that, I go back to my previous statement that, just because you want to live your life a certain way, and the church condemns that, it does not necessarily make the church wrong, and it does not mean that the church should bow to your wishes.

If you are referring to homosexuality, then, yes, I do see your point. As I said, though, I wish they would soften their stance on that, but my wishes are not always God's wishes. I pray anyway that, eventually, He will speak to those who govern the church and soften their hearts so that all people will someday find acceptance and not have to live in denial of something that is intrinsic to their very existence.

And the other side to that argument-if all people tomorrow stopped committing any sins-would that make the death of Jesus in vain?

Well, human nature being what it is, that won't happen, but to answer your question, no.
Jesus died for our sins, but if we stopped sinning, that does not make his death to be in vain.
It simply means that we have stopped giving in to our human impulses and decided to follow his example instead. That would be pleasing to God.

His death would then have become a sacrifice for those who have gone before us and died in a state of sin.