Religious extremists attacking a PP in my state

[Amethyst Hunter]

I'm not sure where exactly to put this, so my apologies in advance if it should be someplace else.

A Planned Parenthood is going to be opening this month (pending final city approval; currently the process is tied up in legalese due to certain factors) in my state. For those of you who don't know what PP is, they specialize in low-cost women's healthcare, including contraception (birth control), gynecological treatment (exams and the like), educational resources, sexually transmitted disease diagnosis and treatment, and yes, Virginia, the dreaded A-word. I'm not interested in debating the morality (or lack thereof) of that last part; the fact is that the *overwhelming* majority of PP's services are preventative care-based, the abortion part makes up for only about 3 - 10% of total services (depending on what statistics you turn up).

What cheeses me off is that an anti-choice group with KNOWN TIES to religious extremists who HAVE been documented as committing violence against similar clinics in the past is trying its damndest to keep PP from opening/running. My state DOES have a need for such healthcare options, as one of our counties was recently ranked at an alarming rate for STDs and poverty increases. Unfortunately, the nutjobs have suckered an awful lot of people who don't agree with abortion but who otherwise might be OK with the rest of the stuff into believing that *all* PP does is abortions and that they're trying to "recruit" teenagers.

And when you factor in that many women take contraception medication for things like PCOS *in addition to* preventing unwanted pregnancy, yeah - this just smacks of yet another organized attempt to stomp on women.

I can provide links to information if anyone is interested in reading more on this story. (Hint: It's one of the biggest things to come out of the Midwest lately.)

[Seshat]

Grrrrarrh. I hate that. I do have PCOS, not to mention having girly bits that need periodic preventative-medicine checkups. And I have a niece, who's going to be teenage scarily soon. And a nephew, who's only a couple of years behind her.

Places like PP are invaluable. Even if you're anti-abortion, it's horrendously short-sighted to attack PP's work as a whole just because of one procedure you find unethical.

I've read of one strategy that works very well against the protestors, once they go public. A journalist named Anna Quindlen found a film of someone asking anti-abortion protestors, on camera, how much jail time women should get if they have their child aborted.

The news article is here.

[MadMike]

Places like PP are invaluable. Even if you're anti-abortion, it's horrendously short-sighted to attack PP's work as a whole just because of one procedure you find unethical.

Agreed. I'm against abortion myself, except in cases of rape and when it's necessary to save the woman's life. However, Planned Parenthood does so much more good than what I perceive as "bad."

Even if they're providing abortions, they're also providing birth control, which reduces the number of unwanted pregnancies, which in turn reduces the number of women seeking abortions.

[Greenday]

Awesome video of people not being able to answer the question of what penalty women should have for getting an illegal abortion. Hm, make it illegal, but have no penalty for it? So why bother following the law?

I believe in abortion, but I don't think it should be used as a primary contraceptive. If a girl plans on being sexually active, get on the damn pill. There's no excuse. It's RIDICULOUSLY effective on it's own, so at least you can say you weren't trying to have a kid.

Also, I don't see what gives legislators the right to tell a woman what she can and can't do with her body in such a situation. It has nothing to do with them so let them make up their own choice and live with it.

[Kerrisan]

A Christian's view

I guess I am a "religious extremist" then, because I am a Christian.

As a Christian, I see things in black and white. No gray. There is wrong and there is right. No middle ground. I don't care if PP does all this other good stuff; they still perform abortions. To me that's like saying that it's ok that the batch of brownies you just made only has half a teaspoon of dog poo in them; they're still brownies.

As a Christian, I also believe that God knows what He is doing. He created a woman's body to abort a child on its own if it's not going to make it. It's called miscarriage. Abortion in any case is wrong. Yes, I understand that sometimes women get raped and become pregnant. If I were ever in that situation, I would carry the child to term and put him up for adoption, because I believe that if God did not want that child on Earth, it would not be here. It's not up to me as a human to decide who should live and who should not. That's in God's Hands.

This is why the people could not say what the punishment should be for abortion if it were illegal. They just know a that it is wrong by God's standards. I honestly don't know how I would answer the question either. But I know that it is wrong to take another life.

Just wanted to provide a little insight from someone who holds a different view.

[Jaden]

I suppose I'm a "religious extremist" too.

To me, saying that we shouldn't protest the PP because they do a lot of good stuff besides abortion is like saying we shouldn't protest a soup kitchen where they take a handful of people who come through and kill them in the back room. And yes, I did just equate abortion with killing innocent people. Because that's what it is.

The world went to war over 6 million innocent lives cruelly and unjustly taken. It was, of course, an absolutely horrible tragedy, and I am not trying to downplay the sheer terror of that event.

But I shudder to think that we have had 46 million children killed every year with absolutely nobody raising a finger about it.

Just my 2 cents.

[Greenday]

If you at least have some valid reasons backing your opinions, fine, believe what you want to believe. But I am sick to death of hearing the BS reason "my religion says it's wrong". If your religion said to jump off a freaking bridge, would you do it? I bet a lot of the blind followers would. People need to learn to think for themselves.

[Kerrisan]

Faith is not scientific. It has to be believed. I can't provide you the kind of proof the world wants. But I know what I believe based on my faith.

I do not follow blindly because I do not follow a religion; I have faith in God. I have faith that He knows what is right and does not need my help in deciding who should live and who should not. My faith has never failed me and it never will. I believe and know that God is right. It is wrong to take lives, plain and simple.

[Greenday]

I'm not saying religion is a horrible thing. I think it's great. It gets people through the hard times when they need it and it's something if you do believe in it, it will always be there for you.

But when it comes to situations like this, "my religion says so" doesn't quite cut it. Jaden's reasoning of it being murder of a helpless individual is probably the most convincing thing I've ever heard from someone who is anti-abortion. But that's the thing. Jaden actually used reasoning. Reasoning affects EVERYONE. "My religion says so" doesn't.

[CancelMyService]

As a Christian, I see things in black and white. No gray. There is wrong and there is right. No middle ground.

Not to denigrate anyone's beliefs but there world doesn't operate in just black and white. There *is* middle ground in almost everything, and to insist there isn't is pretty much the source of most conflict in the world since you're into "I'm right, you're wrong" territory.

[Seshat]

Religious people become 'religious extremists' when they're attacking people in the name of their religion. The extremist anti-abortion protesters do a lot of damage - some have killed people, in the name of stopping something they see as murder. That's extreme. That's what gets people like me upset.

Peaceful protest, writing letters to the council, speaking in public fora - that's all fine. Heck, I encourage it. 'I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it', and all that.
But once you (the generic you) start blocking people from entering the building, that starts worrying me. Pushing, shoving pamphlets in their face, yelling horrible things - I disapprove of that, and would call the police on you (again, generic). But if it gets to murder, that's extreme, criminal, and I cannot believe that the God my parents taught me about would approve.

Kerrisan, Jaden, so long as neither of you have condoned violence, murder, and abuse in the name of what you believe to be right, you're not 'extremists' in the sense I use the word. Relax, I'm willing to listen to you.

Of course, I'm also about to rebut some of your arguments. But in the spirit of open communication and trying to identify where we agree and disagree, not in any attempt to shut you down.

So. Taking this from the easiest to the hardest.

Miscarriage

Many, many children are born, not miscarried, with severe birth defects. Some are born dead, and if you research 'stone baby', some are never born. The CDC's webpage says 1 in 33 children in the States are born with a birth defect, but that includes the really minor ones. For the purpose of this discussion, I think only the ones who won't survive are relevant.
Hm. I've not had much googling success on finding what I really want, but this page explains that the infant death rate and the under-two death rate of children with 'reportable birth defects' (presumably ones which are severe enough to matter clinically) is much higher than for normal children.

I could shock you with pictures of harlequin babies and other perinatal abnormalities. If you want to see, follow this link to photos of abnormalities. If not, don't bother - basically, these are a lot of babies who didn't miscarry, and many can't survive.

On top of that, of course, there's the complications of pregnancy that cause permanent damage to the mother's body. I've seen people say that they support abortion where the mother's life is in danger - what about 'merely' her health? God doesn't always miscarry the babies that threaten the mother's health. There is a nice list at thelizlibrary, but I acknowledge that as a source, those of you who are against abortion may consider it biased. Please feel free to do your own research on the conditions it names.

In summary, however, miscarriage is not sufficient protection for me, or for any child of my body. I accept that you may feel differently, but I ask you not to impose your decision on me and my hypothetical child.

Your other points

Your other points are ones on which we will almost certainly have to agree to disagree. As I understand it, they are:
1. Abortion is murder
2. Even in rape, God has put the child there and wants it there
3. A single act of evil taints every positive act the clinics may perform

For all of these, I see them as matters of individual conscience and belief. I resent people who would force matters of belief and faith on me - and I'm sure you'd resent people forcing matters of faith on you. Would you like to be forced to fast all day during Ramadan?

Anyway, working backwards:

A single act of evil....

Well then, I'd better not stub my toe and swear while I'm helping out at the RSPCA.

I know. It's more severe than that. But many things Christians do offends my faith, and I still perceive the good works done in Christ's name as good. And let's face it, your holiest sacrament is ritual symbolic cannibalism. ("Take and eat, this is my body. Take and drink, this is my blood.")

I guess your argument would make more sense if I did see abortion as murder. But I don't.

God wants the baby there

God isn't stopped by something as simple as abortion. And as I was taught, He can look inside us. If He wanted a particular baby born, he could give it to someone who actually wants to be pregnant.


Abortion as murder

Most abortions are performed in the first twelve weeks of pregnancy. At twelve weeks, its a little over five centimetres long and weighs fourteen grams. It's living tissue, wholly dependant on the mother for survival.
My appendix is longer and larger, is living tissue, and wholly depends on me for survival. I'd have my appendix removed. I'd have a twelve week foetus removed with equally little problem.
To me, it's not a person until it becomes capable of independant life. (Actually, I have trouble seeing babies as people. Toddlers are, babies aren't. But I accept that I'm unusually odd that way.)

I just don't see abortion as murder. I'm sure you're about to say something about embryos having souls from the moment of conception - but I have two things to say about that. One is that we can't prove it, and the other is that even if it's so, surely God is capable of protecting those souls.
Actually, if I were God, I wouldn't put a soul in a baby until it actually became interesting to be there. Probably somewhere between babyhood and toddlerhood.

[Seshat]

Not to denigrate anyone's beliefs but there world doesn't operate in just black and white. There *is* middle ground in almost everything, and to insist there isn't is pretty much the source of most conflict in the world since you're into "I'm right, you're wrong" territory.

Good point, CancelMyService.

I'll also add that most of the Christians I know (including my parents, including most of the ministers I know) are very aware that there's middle ground almost everywhere. I'm surprised by people who see 'right' and 'wrong' and no variations.

[Jaden]

There IS gray...in some things. I don't believe this is one of them though.

For example, I am a Christian, and being a Christian I don't think casual divorce is right. However, I do believe there are certainly some very good reasons for divorce, y'know, abuse, adultery, things like that.

I'm not trying to force my beliefs on anyone. The Bible makes it pretty clear that you can't judge people who don't live by the Bible by the Bible, so I'm not going to bring the Bible into any debate I have with anybody who does not also claim to follow it. I understand many insane fundies seem to overlook that verse but, well, I can't name anything that doesn't have insane, blind followers.

So, why should I protest the creation of a Planned Parenthood? Wouldn't that be pushing my beliefs on others? Not really. I believe abortion is murder. Murder is illegal. Therefore, abortion should be illegal, regardless of the other good the organization may do. Cursing is not illegal, and quite frankly I really don't mind anybody cursing around me. I believe in every person's right to live their life the way they want, so long as it does not interfere with other people's rights, which I believe abortion does infringe on the rights of baby.

As far as abortion being murder, well quite frankly I couldn't care less as to whether or not the fetus is considered "living" by medical standards, though I think there are arguments for the fetus being alive. If you throw some flower seeds into the ground, and then destroy the seeds, are you not, in essence, destroying the flower? Same principle, I'd imagine. I'm certainly not against the use of contraceptives, and I certainly do encourage condom usage and the pill to anybody who decides to have sex. I don't think there's anything wrong with that (that's like not throwing the seeds into the ground to begin with).

As far as things not being black and white, well, how far are you willing to take that? Once again, I agree that it is true in some cases, but what if somebody did something like, I dunno, burned down somebody's house. What if that person doesn't believe that doing that is wrong, or thought they had a good reason? Is there a gray area? Should we not interfere? Some things are black and white.

[CancelMyService]

I believe in every person's right to live their life the way they want, so long as it does not interfere with other people's rights, which I believe abortion does infringe on the rights of baby.

What about cases where abortion is sometimes an option to save the life of the mother? Do the rights of the unborn trump the rights of the born? Again another grey issue rears its head. Where do you draw the line and why?

If you throw some flower seeds into the ground, and then destroy the seeds, are you not, in essence, destroying the flower?

IMO, you're just destroying some seeds before they were allowed to potentially grow into flowers, which is kind of the argument a lot of pro-choice people make.

As far as things not being black and white, well, how far are you willing to take that? Once again, I agree that it is true in some cases, but what if somebody did something like, I dunno, burned down somebody's house. What if that person doesn't believe that doing that is wrong, or thought they had a good reason? Is there a gray area? Should we not interfere? Some things are black and white.

It would depend on the context. It's hard to say if something is "right" or "wrong" unless all the details are known.


Also:

I couldn't care less as to whether or not the fetus is considered "living" by medical standards

It would seem the very crux of all your arguments are based on that very thing, so it would suggest you do in fact care about. Also, there's the idea that there can (and usually is) disagreement over which things are black and white and which aren't.

[Jaden]

What about cases where abortion is sometimes an option to save the life of the mother? Do the rights of the unborn trump the rights of the born? Again another grey issue rears its head. Where do you draw the line and why?

Well, since I consider them both humans, and thus both have the same rights as any other human, that since there is only a chance of the mother dying, whereas there would be a 100% chance of a baby dying in a successful abortion, obviously. I guess that all comes down to whether a mother is willing to risk her life for her child, which is on your own conscience. But I don't think that it's her right or any doctor's right to decide who lives and who dies.

And before anybody says it, I'm not trying to cheapen the lives of women. If, by some very strange and probably disturbing miracle, men were able to get pregnant, I'd say the same thing about it.

IMO, you're just destroying some seeds before they were allowed to potentially grow into flowers, which is kind of the argument a lot of pro-choice people make.

Seeds in the ground even for just a short time, when taken proper care of, have already started to develop and become a flower after a very short time, even if it's not entirely noticeable. Likewise, a fetus, even in a short time, has already started to take in nutrients from the mother and started to grow. It's already in the state of becoming and growing. Even if it isn't alive (which I still have serious doubts on), it is becoming alive.

It would depend on the context. It's hard to say if something is "right" or "wrong" unless all the details are known.

Ok. Let's say your best friend got raped. He doesn't see anything wrong with what he did. Do you need anymore information? Is anything your friend did to him worth her getting raped over? Even if she did something terrible to him in the first place? Acts of revenge make it alright?

Rape is a terrible thing. I'm not trying to cheapen such a traumatic experience at all. But following the line of logic that NOTHING is black and white (which I never said everything was black and white), well, we don't know the circumstances. I guess we shouldn't interfere. How can you judge what's right or wrong in this case? Maybe his religion says it's ok. Then you get into the territory of discriminating against people for their religion.

I just don't see how a person could take the position of nothing, or even almost nothing is black and white. What do we have laws for then? What's the point if nothing is wrong or right? What's the point if nobody cares about anybody else and will just do whatever they feel is right?

It would seem the very crux of all your arguments are based on that very thing, so it would suggest you do in fact care about. Also, there's the idea that there can (and usually is) disagreement over which things are black and white and which aren't.

I think I just went over this in my post. But for the record, the quote you put before this was obviously connected with the line after it, and I don't appreciate taking my words out of context.