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**Nyoibo** · 12-15-2009, 09:32 PM

Just don't jump over the burning log naked, you can get singed in uncomfortable places.

**BlaqueKatt** · 12-15-2009, 11:21 PM

Originally posted by draggar View Post

Lights are a Christian tradition.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Lights and fire have been used in spiritual and religious ceremonies for almost as long as we could control fire, which was a LONG time before Jesus was born.

and you already mentioned Hanukkah-which is "the festival of lights" because the purified oil in the reclaimed temple to light the menorah was enough to last one day-yet it lasted 8, long enough for a new batch of oil to be processed.

**Fryk** · 12-16-2009, 03:59 AM

I thought I read somewhere (too lazy to look it up again:: ) ) that Jesus would most likely have been born in September or October. Either way, it was almost certainly not December.
Another funny thing... I can recall in the Bible where Jesus said to remember his sacrifice and resurrection, but nowhere in the Bible did he request a birthday party.
As for Chanukkah, yeah, they give gifts, too... now. Originally, I don't believe they were part of the celebration, and in some houses even today, they still don't make a big deal out of it. Most of my jewish friends certainly did NOT get a gift for every day of Hanukah. I think it all boils down to one-upmanship. Christians fired the first salvo off by placing great (over)emphasis on the holiday, and other festivals happening around then felt the need to follow suit, including (C)han(n)u(k)kah(pltnrp).
As a matter of fact, in the early church (and even in some denominations today), christmas was barely observed. Someone more knowlegable than I can help me out, but I think the big push for Christmas actually didn't happen until the 17th or 18th century.

**smileyeagle1021** · 12-16-2009, 06:08 AM

these are the same people who get upset when you wish them "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas". I've gotten to the point where I don't wish either because I'm not feeling happy or merry about anything at this time of year because of idiots like that.
As a side note, Glenn Beck has his crusade against Happy Holidays... guess what the LDS Church (of which Glenn Beck is a member) is wishing passerbys of its City Creek project

**gremcint** · 12-16-2009, 07:05 AM

Honestly all sides of this are too blame:
1. People getting upset at being wished Merry Christmas (get a fucking life)
2. People complaining when a company says Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas (just because you celebrate it doesn't mean everyone does)
3. People complaining when something is referred to as a holiday event (school pageants etc.) instead of Christmas pageants (first amendment and school's are a government institution)
4. School's canceling holiday pageants due to small portion of the school complaining.
5. I have twice now heard people saying (paraphrased) that if someone has a problem with Christmas then they should go back to their own country (that is a thread in itself)
6. People saying there isn't a war on Christmas (war may be exaggerating but it's not far off, I can't wish someone a merry Christmas without fear of being yelled at)
7. The fact that people have a problem with other's celebrating their holidays (I'm sorry but why the hell do I have to meet your definition of Christian to celebrate a holiday with my family and what business is it of yours)
8. People complaining about Christmas carols when they are not really Christmas carols all of the time (someone on grey's anatomy complained about singing let it snow as they aren't Christian, last I checked it was about snow not Jesus, Santa or Christmas)
9. people complaining that there aren't more songs for their religion (first off after living with a Jewish family for three years I can tell you there are more songs than just the dreidel one) there are more Christians therefore there are more Christmas songs, if you want more songs then write some and shut up.

Look all sides have people that feel entitled to certain things, all sides have people that are assholes and will do their best to make everyone else miserable. You encounter more Christian assholes simply because there are more Christians and assholes create assholes.

Also so fucking what if a symbol came from somewhere else? I wasn't aware that there was a trademark on the Christmas tree, just because it comes from somewhere else doesn't mean it can't be traditional. CHRISTMAS LIGHTS are a CHRISTMAS TRADITION if we want them to be. There is no law that says you can't use them to celebrate another holiday.

I seriously get tired of this time of year. Yes, people call it the Christmas season but that is because companies want to suit to the largest demographic which is Christians - so cater to them because they're have the most money overall. Decades of this and it becomes one huge COMMERCIAL holiday.

Actually most companies I know of these days refer to it as the holiday season, companies constantly market to the largest demographic, I have never once heard an American complain about all the fourth of July stuff near that time and complain about how there is no Canada day stuff.

Companies make plenty of things that are for the holidays that aren't solely for Christmas, there are tons of wrapping papers, greeting cards, decorations, sales, promotions, and commercials that can be for everyone. Companies will advertise Christmas trees because they sell, if you want to see more nonchristmas stuff then start buying nonchristmas stuff because they will sell what sells.

Why shouldn't a company focus on Christmas, heck it's perfect for them, new decorations every year, gift giving, trees and more. Honestly the Christmas season is a company's wet dream, so don't fault them for trying to make money.

BTW I rarely run into people acting entitled around Christmas (I know they're out there) but what pisses me off is people making fun of my celebration with my family, like I said so what if the Christmas tree was a pagan symbol it doesn't change the fact that I'm going to celebrate with and you basically just made fun of my family for using a Christmas tree.

Also symbols change meaning over time just like words, groups will choose a symbol and attach a meaning too it, (I could go Godwin here but I won't).

It used to be that I could buy gifts and decorations in peace, leave others alone to celebrate their holidays, and celebrate with my family. Yes the stores focused on Christmas but it's not like they banned non Christians from shopping or getting the same deals, if there was demand for an item they would have it. My school would do their best to include all groups and I had no problem with that because they still let us have our fun.

but every year now for the last several years I have to listen to how much of a joke my traditions are (I don't fucking care where they came from they are not a joke to me) how I'm not allowed to wish someone a merry Christmas anymore, how a company or organization having a tree may offend someone who doesn't celebrate Christmas (hey Christmas haters why does this happen when you say the tree isn't unique to Christmas) therefore at my job I'm not allowed to wish people merry Christmas and in fact have to pretend I have no religion sometimes because I might offend someone, well you know what? I AM OFFENDED at the thought that someone thinks they have a right to control how I celebrate my holiday.

Looking at a Christmas tree will not cause you physical pain so just suck it up and move on. If you want to have a giant Menorah on your lawn I won't bother you, in fact I think it would look rather nice. So quite frankly while I do try to avoid the attitudes presented by some Christians I can actually understand where they are coming from.

edit to add: this is not directed at you specifically and I got a little more worked up than I intended, if I crossed any lines let me know and I'll try to reword a few things, but this gets to be a bit of an issue for me.

**jackfaire** · 12-16-2009, 06:58 PM

As far as the Happy Holidays thing. I was raised in a christian household where Christmas and New Years only were celebrated I didn't know of any other holidays. We said happy holidays not because we were ignoring Christmas but because in December

WE CELEBRATE TWO FREAKING HOLIDAYS

Hence Happy Holidays people.

People act like it's a bloody new thing to say it ain't

**RootedPhoenix** · 12-16-2009, 10:21 PM

I figure that "Happy Holidays" is a useful shorthand. I could spend several minutes wishing you everything... but why take that time when there's an expression that covers them all?

I wonder why people don't just accept things in the spirit they were given. "Merry Christmas!" doesn't need to be taken like "I hate you, and everything you are.". People are often just trying to be nice.

**XCashier** · 12-17-2009, 03:04 AM

Originally posted by gremcint View Post

Looking at a Christmas tree will not cause you physical pain so just suck it up and move on. If you want to have a giant Menorah on your lawn I won't bother you, in fact I think it would look rather nice. So quite frankly while I do try to avoid the attitudes presented by some Christians I can actually understand where they are coming from.

Agreed! I have no problem at all with a Hanukkah menorah or Kwanzaa kinara or Yule log. I can respect your customs and beliefs; all I ask is that you respect mine in return.

Originally posted by RootedPhoenix View Post

I wonder why people don't just accept things in the spirit they were given. "Merry Christmas!" doesn't need to be taken like "I hate you, and everything you are.". People are often just trying to be nice.

I agree with this too. Some folks, unfortunately, just aren't satisfied until they make someone else unhappy. Misery loves company and all that.

So, let's all have a (in order of occurance) Happy Hanukkah, Good Yule, Merry Christmas, Happy Kwanzaa and Happy New Year!

**Slytovhand** · 12-17-2009, 04:35 AM

Originally posted by RootedPhoenix

I wonder why people don't just accept things in the spirit they were given. "Merry Christmas!" doesn't need to be taken like "I hate you, and everything you are.". People are often just trying to be nice.

Originally posted by Xcashier

I can respect your customs and beliefs; all I ask is that you respect mine in return.

Ah, well you see, there is a good reason for this - intolerance. For a very large part of 'X' religions, their adherents don't respect other customs and beliefs. Thus, it does come across as more 'respectful' to just say 'Happy Holidays', rather than choose to only express your one belief.

Gremcint, I can probably give you a bit of insight... the 'Christmas Tree' isn't part of the Christmas tradition. It has become so quite some time after Christianity tried to get its foothold. And, because of the damage the earlier churches did to other beliefs, it's a bit of a sore point to take other traditions and their icons and symbols, and yet kill, maim, etc the observers of those religions. So, it's not really a personal attack on you as an individual, but on the religion (and moreso - it's past). This becomes especially true if one religion is 'protected' in the law for practicing its rites and rituals, but others are 'persecuted'. For example, let's say a Wiccan chooses to do a ritual - in the privacy of their own home and with similarly-minded friends and relatives - and they do it sky-clad (naked). What if some of the members of their coven are 16 or 17 years old? Different example - what really (in the eyes of the law) is wrong with animal sacrifice? (no, I don't agree with it, but just using it as an example) - why would that be any different to hunting? Or just eating meat in general??

**Bloodsoul** · 12-17-2009, 07:06 AM

Only thing I ever planned on saying this month was "Happy Birthday" to my grandmother (Dec 6th) and my sister (Dec 31st).

Fuck the holidays.

**draggar** · 12-17-2009, 10:38 AM

Originally posted by gremcint View Post

Look all sides have people that feel entitled to certain things, all sides have people that are assholes and will do their best to make everyone else miserable. You encounter more Christian assholes simply because there are more Christians and assholes create assholes.

I've never seen a Jewish person state that all of December is for just them (and yes, I've worked with a lot of them), every one I've known acknowledged other holidays during the month of December. The same with Kwanzaa. As for the Pagans, well, we're persecuted enough (even today) that we just keep to our selves.

Also so fucking what if a symbol came from somewhere else? I wasn't aware that there was a trademark on the Christmas tree, just because it comes from somewhere else doesn't mean it can't be traditional. CHRISTMAS LIGHTS are a CHRISTMAS TRADITION if we want them to be. There is no law that says you can't use them to celebrate another holiday.

Let me ask you this - what if the government today started to day that when the explorers cam here there were no other humans and we just took this unclaimed land and made a country.

Don't you think the native American population would protest the hell out of this? This is close to the same about these (few) Christian (fanatics?) claiming that the winter holidays were all their ideas and everyone else is copying them.

These people need to read up about what Emperor Benedict did to re-establish the Roman Empire (later called the Holy Roman Empire). They need to do some unbiased research on their traditions. Closing your eyes on the past is a great way to make sure it happens again.

Actually most companies I know of these days refer to it as the holiday season, companies constantly market to the largest demographic, I have never once heard an American complain about all the fourth of July stuff near that time and complain about how there is no Canada day stuff.

I've seen this shift towards "Happy Holidays" over the past few years, back in the 1970s, 1980s, and into the 1990s it was all about Merry Christmas and Christmas Sales, and Christmas hours, and Christmas merchandise.

My issue is that these fanatics claim that is proof that it was the Christians who started all this and everyone needs to bow down to their needs. Christianity is the largest religion in the USA so back then it was the largest demographic to appease with their winter sales.

BTW I rarely run into people acting entitled around Christmas (I know they're out there) but what pisses me off is people making fun of my celebration with my family, like I said so what if the Christmas tree was a pagan symbol it doesn't change the fact that I'm going to celebrate with and you basically just made fun of my family for using a Christmas tree.

I am going to assume you are a Christian (from your post). The reason why you don't hear it is because the fanatics won't complain to their own religion, they'll be preaching to the choir. No, I am not saying all Christians are fanatics (I'd say 99.99999% are not) but those that are will spend their time preaching to us non-believers (eh, I've been called a lot worse) about our hell-bound ways. Why would they preach to someone who celebrates Christmas that they have to celebrate Christmas?

Also symbols change meaning over time just like words, groups will choose a symbol and attach a meaning too it, (I could go Godwin here but I won't).

Yep but these people forget the roots of the traditions. It's like Sony claiming they invented the television because they came out with a new TV. No, they didn't invent it they just modernized it to suit their (commercial / sales) needs.

It used to be that I could buy gifts and decorations in peace, leave others alone to celebrate their holidays, and celebrate with my family. Yes the stores focused on Christmas but it's not like they banned non Christians from shopping or getting the same deals, if there was demand for an item they would have it. My school would do their best to include all groups and I had no problem with that because they still let us have our fun.

That's nice. I can't. People see me buying a pentagram and I'm automatically a Satanist. People see me looking for Yule logs and they look at me like I have three heads. I tell people I'm Pagan and my wife is Wiccan and I get asked thing like "Oh, are you going to sacrifice one of your dogs?" or some other stupid shit. (BTW - the main Wiccan philosophy is "Do as you wish as long as you harm none").

but every year now for the last several years I have to listen to how much of a joke my traditions are (I don't fucking care where they came from they are not a joke to me) how I'm not allowed to wish someone a merry Christmas anymore, how a company or organization having a tree may offend someone who doesn't celebrate Christmas (hey Christmas haters why does this happen when you say the tree isn't unique to Christmas) therefore at my job I'm not allowed to wish people merry Christmas and in fact have to pretend I have no religion sometimes because I might offend someone, well you know what? I AM OFFENDED at the thought that someone thinks they have a right to control how I celebrate my holiday.

Now you know what I go though every year and not once do I tell people how to celebrate the holidays. That's their own business. Again, my issue is with hard core Christian fanatics telling me that my holiday is a fake one, mine is a copy of theirs, my holidays are just for Satan worshipers, and the string of stupid comments that just prove they know jack about my religion (and if they do know anything it's extremely biased).

Looking at a Christmas tree will not cause you physical pain so just suck it up and move on. If you want to have a giant Menorah on your lawn I won't bother you, in fact I think it would look rather nice. So quite frankly while I do try to avoid the attitudes presented by some Christians I can actually understand where they are coming from.

Nope, it won't.

edit to add: this is not directed at you specifically and I got a little more worked up than I intended, if I crossed any lines let me know and I'll try to reword a few things, but this gets to be a bit of an issue for me.

NP. You seem more educated than these fanatics. I don't have an issue with Christmas, people celebrating it (or any other holidays) my issue is with the fanatics acting like this is their time and no one else's.

Just like a huge church near me, they have a lit up sign "Jesus is the reason for the Season". He is the reason for the Christian season, but not THE season. THE season is caused by Earth's orbit around the sun and it's tilt thus making the northern hemisphere cooler (less direct sunlight).

Early Christians moved their celebrations to coincide with the Pagan celebration of Yule so they wouldn't be persecuted for celebrating the "new religion". Christianity was an "underground" religion until probably the 4th century AD. Then, holy wars began in Europe, first removing the Muslim influence from extreme western Europe (Spain) and then turning eastward towards anyone not Christian. The philosophy was, either convert or die and this war set the stage for Christianity's modern day success.

**Slytovhand** · 12-18-2009, 04:26 AM

And I've not ever seen anyone not looked a bit surprised when asked why they don't celebrate the Winter Solstice. Nor Kwanzaa, nor Hanukkah, nor a stack of other non-Christian celebrations. (except from some of my pagan friends if I happen to say I'm not doing much).

But say you're not going to celebrate Christmas, and oh do the looks and questions start??? All of a sudden you're a tight-arse. Say you don't do things with your family, and you're evil and uncaring!

**protege** · 12-18-2009, 02:13 PM

Thought I'd throw this in here... Does anyone celebrate Winter-Een-Mas? Granted, it has nothing to do with religion...but is simply a week-long celebration of video games. Of course that holiday's founder also came up with the Church of Gaming...but that's beside the point

Either way, that week will be spent playing lots of games, everything from GTA to SimCity 4. It should be glorious!

**jackfaire** · 12-18-2009, 10:39 PM

Originally posted by protege View Post

Thought I'd throw this in here... Does anyone celebrate Winter-Een-Mas?

MUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA YES WE DO!!!!

My roommate has the ten commandments of gaming over his door.

Originally posted by draggar View Post

Just like a huge church near me, they have a lit up sign "Jesus is the reason for the Season". He is the reason for the Christian season, but not THE season. THE season is caused by Earth's orbit around the sun and it's tilt thus making the northern hemisphere cooler (less direct sunlight)..

There is a store in my neighborhood who have their window painted and it says, "Jesus is the reason for all the seasons" I keep wanting to go in and ask if they like blaspheming against God for implying that Jesus created the world and not him. (No I am not Christian but was raised it and it was understood Jesus saved us but God made everything.)

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(Some) Christians getting up-tight this time of year

(Some) Christians getting up-tight this time of year

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