(Some) Christians getting up-tight this time of year

[RecoveringKinkoid]

I'd be very curious to know how many people espousing the idea that Merry Christmas is offensive because it "pushes a single belief" would have the same knee jerk reaction if someone wished them happy Hanukkah.

None, I would suspect. Mainly because the same demographic that wants everyone to know how wrong they think Christianity is would loose their collective shit if they were ever accused of, say, anti semitism. Or any other form of intolerance (other than the one that is okay. You know the one I mean.)

And frankly, "Christmas" the way it's celebrated in the mainstream, has so little to do with Christianity anymore that the gnashing of teeth and tearing of hair surrounding it is just plain foolish.

[Kalli]

How I wish everyone would just stop getting their knickers in a friggin twist about holidays, celebrate whatever they want, let everyone else celebrate whatever THEY want, relax, and STFU!

[Slytovhand]

"...how many people espousing the idea that Merry Christmas is offensive because it "pushes a single belief" would have the same knee jerk reaction if someone wished them happy Hanukkah."

How many Christians would have a similar knee-jerk reaction if a pagan wished them a "Happy <insert holy pagan festival>"?

The problem with your argument - the same problem that has been around forever and all across the world - is for a majority to try and tell the surrounding minorities that what they do is perfectly ok, and that everyone should just suck up and take it, because - well... it's the majority viewpoint - so it must be ok! And, from there, that anyone who kicks up a stink about it is just a psycho religious fundy nutjob who gets their knickers in a knot about everything - and thus, any opinion they express can be simply ignored!

This leads to the 'minorities getting their way' line.....

Which, in turn, is precisely how religious wars start.....


[quote=RK}And frankly, "Christmas" the way it's celebrated in the mainstream, has so little to do with Christianity anymore that the gnashing of teeth and tearing of hair surrounding it is just plain foolish.[/quote]

Irony! Some Christians are complaining because 'Christmas' is no longer about Christ, others are complaining that they can't wish 'Merry Christmas' any more ... and yet, Christmas 'has so little do do with Christianity anymore'...

Just curious, how would you react if someone said "Happy Consumerism Day" to you instead?

[Fryk]

Just curious, how would you react if someone said "Happy Consumerism Day" to you instead?

Would there be presents involved?

[DesignFox]

<snip>
Just curious, how would you react if someone said "Happy Consumerism Day" to you instead?

Personally, I'd laugh my ass off.

As long as someone grants me warm wishes with good intentions, I don't care what they call it.

I'm not a tightwad, though.

[draggar]

How I wish everyone would just stop getting their knickers in a friggin twist about holidays, celebrate whatever they want, let everyone else celebrate whatever THEY want, relax, and STFU!

Exactly the point of this thread. I'm Pagan, my wife is Wiccan yet it seems that SOME Christian fanatics feel they they need to tell us that we're going to burn in hell as Satan worshipers when we mention anything about a Yule celebration or the solstice. I don't say anything about them, their religion, or their holidays. (Of course, I love it when they mention the pentagram is a Satanic symbol - um, it isn't, an inverse Pentagram, and besides, our religious symbol isn't a form of execution that was used for hundreds of years, but that also can be turned upside down to be used as a Satanic (well, Anti-Christ) symbol.

I don't mind other celebrations now, I mind the fact that some people act like their holiday is the only one - and since it seems that "Freedom of Religion" seems to not apply to Pagans and Wiccans (just look up when Wiccan solders who died in combat were finally allowed to have pentagrams on their tombstones in Arlington - that should give you a hint). Religious equality applies to everyone - not just members of the "popular" religions.

Personally, I'd laugh my ass off.

As long as someone grants me warm wishes with good intentions, I don't care what they call it.

I'm not a tightwad, though.

Yep, I'm the same way. I worked in a predominantly Jewish area and I got wished a happy Hanukkah (sp?) many times and never once protested it - I just said "and the same to you" (or something similar). I've even had the pastries (that are a lot like jelly doughnuts) - I forgot what they're called (heck, even some Kosher foods taste better than non-Kosher).

[Seshat]

Mainly because the same demographic that wants everyone to know how wrong they think Christianity is

Okay - I'm not in the States, so maybe there's something I don't see. But I don't know anyone who "wants everyone to know how wrong they think Christianity is".

All I know is people who want Christians to be accepting and tolerant of non-Christian religions.

would loose their collective shit if they were ever accused of, say, anti semitism. Or any other form of intolerance (other than the one that is okay. You know the one I mean.)

What I want is this:
* Muslim, Jewish and other such children to feel comfortable and safe going to school with head coverings on.
* Explanations of Ramadan and Passover and Solstice celebrations getting roughly equal time with explanations of Christmas and Easter, in approximate proportion to the religious demographics of the school area.
* Comparative religion being taught in all schools, regardless of demographics, at least to the point where the kids learn to respect and tolerate other religions; even if they don't understand them.
* If the school chooses to have a Christmas Nativity Play, the non-Christian kids don't get pushed into participating. Also, these kids' religions also get represented somehow.


Frankly, I don't see how this is intolerance.

What I see most often happening is actually overreaction.

School decides "let's have a nativity play!"
School starts planning for the nativity play.
A parent says "Um, my kid isn't Christian, you know. We'd rather he not be in your play."
Someone in the school suddenly goes "ohmygod, we're going to get in SOOO MUCCCH TROUBLE!" and "we can't have a nativity play without having plays for all the religions in our demographic!"
Someone else goes "we can't do our carol singing either!"

... and then things get overblown, and out of proportion, and someone starts going "but you're discriminating against Christians!"....

... and the original parent probably keeps trying to say "it's okay - I just didn't want Jimmy in the play - go ahead and have your play, it's fine." ...


But the whole thing's taken on a life of its own.


Sure, there are probably plenty of cases where the non-Christian family actually did get offended horribly, and pushed for a lot more. But in the part of the world where I am, the most frequent scenario is a lot more like the one I described.

Though it's getting a lot better.

[RecoveringKinkoid]

"

How many Christians would have a similar knee-jerk reaction if a pagan wished them a "Happy <insert holy pagan festival>"?

?

I don't know, but I haven't met any personally. Have you? . I HAVE had pagans wish me <insert holy pagan festival>, and I thanked them and wished it back. I have been wished Merry Christmas by Pagans, thanked them, and then wished them Happy Solstice.

I know both Christians and Jews, and none of them have been offended by the other wishing them well over the holidays. Ditto the pagans.

"

Irony! Some Christians are complaining because 'Christmas' is no longer about Christ, others are complaining that they can't wish 'Merry Christmas' any more ... and yet, Christmas 'has so little do do with Christianity anymore'...

Just curious, how would you react if someone said "Happy Consumerism Day" to you instead?

Well, I would expect they'd give me a present, for starters. Then I'd laugh. And probably repeat it.

I'm not complaining about the fact that mainstream "Christmas" isn't about Christ. I'm just stating an observation about reality. I don't really care about this development because it has nothing to do with me. Saying "merry christmas" does not shove a beliefe system down anyone's throat any more than saying Happy Holidays does. It's wishing someone a seasonal boon of happiness. Same as saying Happy <insert holiday of your choice> does.

Frankly, I could use some well wishing. We all could. I take my good cheer where I find it. Pagan or Jewish or Shopaholic good cheer is as good as any.

[bunnyboy]

Of course, I love it when they mention the pentagram is a Satanic symbol - um, it isn't, an inverse Pentagram, and besides, our religious symbol isn't a form of execution that was used for hundreds of years, but that also can be turned upside down to be used as a Satanic (well, Anti-Christ) symbol.

Of course both those inverted symbols have their uses in various other religions...

Inverted Pentagram in most Brit Trads and their descendants are nothing more than the symbol for second degree initiation (equivalent of christian deaconhood sort of thing) and hey the pentagram was yet another thing (along with the fish and the Chi Rho) that stood for Christ (five wounds, the spear in the side and lashes all around)

As for the inverted Cross, it's often called the Cross of St. Peter as well, and is actually a symbol of faith, since Peter asked to be crucified upside down to not take away from hrist (according to Post-biblical Christian legends)

so truthfully even the Satanists have stolen those symbols.

[Bloodsoul]

If I didn't work retail I'd have forgotten all about the holidays. I haven't said "Happy Holidays" or "Merry Christmas" or any such things to anyone yet (not that I'm a Scrooge, just that.. woosh, it goes right over my head and I'm like, "...oh, yeah!").

Well, I'm of the camp that thinks people shouldn't get all up in arms about who says what around this time. Just peace out, eh?

Will this do?
http://www.tfsabridged.com/episodes/?ep=christmas08

[Hyena Dandy]

Okay - I'm not in the States, so maybe there's something I don't see. But I don't know anyone who "wants everyone to know how wrong they think Christianity is".

I know plenty of people like that.

All I really want to say on this is that the people intolerant of other religions aren't limited to the religious.

Edit: And note the phrasing. Aren't limited to. Not that religious people can't be intolerant. Just that they're not the only ones who are intolerant.

[Slytovhand]

Seshat - 2 things I would alter in your ideal world there...

Firstly, teaching about religious celebrations at this time of year is not limited to demographic proportions of the school or area. Because, that would lead to a situation that (sort of) happens now. 99% of 1 religion, means the others get seriously trumped - and in schools, that means being ousted from groups, made fun of, etc. No, I think explanations are even across all the boards in equal amounts. Religion should be about personal beliefs, not about world (or local) domination and 'fitting in'.


Secondly, if school has a Christian nativity play or even scene, then they also do similar things for the other religions. Simple! Personally, I don't think any religious 'activities' should be done in schools. Schools are for learning, not preaching. And having such things is a way to preach... and ostracise.


Bunnyboy - your pentagram (and others) history is... interesting. And I am dubious as to its accuracy. Now, if you had've said '...had been used', then I would have agreed. The Fish has been around for ages as a symbol (that's why there's Pisces in the Zodiac). It wasn't "Hey, Christ is here... we need a new symbol to represent him". It was "This symbol represents XYZ, now we can apply it".

[Seshat]

Hyena Dandy:

Sheesh. How rude.


Slyt:

I guess that's what I wanted the comparative religions courses to cover. But you're right, religion can be used to ostracize. And that needs to be countered.


I *do* think that even if we otherwise keep religion out of schools, we should include comparative religion in school.
Religions, philosophies (including atheism and agnosticism) and spiritualities are so important to so many people that part of cultural tolerance MUST include an awareness of religion.
And religion (etc) is so critical to a full understanding of history, and to a full understanding of the current world condition, that without comparative religion people are crippled in their ability to make informed political judgements.

Meh. I'm sidetracking things. I stop now.

[mikoyan29]

This whole "War on Christmas" thing bugs the hell out of me because the people that bear the brunt of it are not the people that come up with with the assinine policies telling cashiers what to say but the cashiers themselves. It is one more reason that Mr. or Mrs. Happy Pants can heap mounds of abuse on "the help". Which is funny given the humble origins of Jesus.

Happy Holidays is a nice simple thing to say. Yes it's neutral, but it can mean whatever you want it to mean to yourself.