How to Get Into Heaven

[the_std]

Even during the days of the Romans, Christianity still existed, and as Roman beliefs waned and became referred to as mythology, Christianity still remained. You can't prove Jesus never came back, and until you take me back into a time machine, and show me a grave three days after Christ's crucifixion, and show me a body that is My Lord And Savior's, then you have me convinced.

I just want to say that, even though we can't prove he wasn't there, we can't prove that he was, either.

I believe that Christianity is a mythology, just like I believe Jainism to be a mythology, just like I believe Islam to be a mythology. Calling it a mythology doesn't make it less applicable to those who believe in it and I don't see it as a negative word.

I find it incredibly difficult to understand how people can put blind faith in any deity, because I simply do not think that way. I went to Catholic schools from grade three till I graduated high school, and I understand the history of Christianity, I understand that lots and lots of people believe these things... I just don't quite see how. This makes it very hard for me to believe in life after death. And, to be completely honest, I'm hoping there isn't any. I'm looking forward to a nice long rest.

[DarthRetard]

I just want to say that, even though we can't prove he wasn't there, we can't prove that he was, either.

I believe that Christianity is a mythology, just like I believe Jainism to be a mythology, just like I believe Islam to be a mythology. Calling it a mythology doesn't make it less applicable to those who believe in it and I don't see it as a negative word.

I understand about not being able to prove one way or another, I really do. I was merely stating a grounds for my disbelief to occur, that's all. As for the mythology issue, if it was mythological, it would make it completely untrue. I can't give you scientific evidence to prove that it is, or isnt true. All I can tell you is that in my heart and faith, I know it to be true. As it is with other christians. We know we can't prove it, but for our faith, evidence is not an issue. I see how some find that hard to believe, and human nature over time has definitely become a "prove it" mentality.

"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen."

That verse in itself says it all, and every christian questions their faith, including Mother Theresa herself who, in her book mentions she felt like there was a period of 20 years without God's influence. She soon realized that it's not about God being there all the time, it's about his influence and his words carrying us through the good and the bad.

I myself am in a conflict where all I have is my faith to go on, and hope that my re-enlistment waiver is approved and signed. I have no evidence one way or the other that it will or won't, but all I can do is put it in the hands of someone who knows what's best for the creature he created and brought into this world.

I'm just trying to shake off this nasty stigma that all Christians preach "fire and brimstone" gospel nowadays, it really bugs me that we're stuck with that stereotype.

[the_std]

As for the mythology issue, if it was mythological, it would make it completely untrue.

my·thol·o·gy Audio Help /mɪˈθɒlədʒi/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[mi-thol-uh-jee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -gies.
1. a body of myths, as that of a particular people or that relating to a particular person: Greek mythology.
2. myths collectively.
3. the science or study of myths.
4. a set of stories, traditions, or beliefs associated with a particular group or the history of an event, arising naturally or deliberately fostered

From dictionary.com (Mythology)

Sorry. Just wanted to point out that "mythology" doesn't necessarily mean "completely untrue". I know I'm being nitpicky, but here it is.

[Amethyst Hunter]

Even the most monotheistic Christian can't deny the existence of Exodus 20:3, one of the Ten Commandments, which states "Do not have any other gods before me". If there is no God but God (something most Christians and Muslims can agree on), then why devote something as important as a Commandment to basically stating the existence of multiple Gods?

I interpret that commandment as this: "Gods" can mean anything that the person places top value to over God, not necessarily multiple actual deities.

For example, if one claims to be a Christian but chooses to dedicate one's 'worship' (i.e., attention, and obsessively so) towards the pursuit of wealth and power instead of following Jesus's teachings (help the poor, be kind to others, so on), then that person is 'worshipping' the 'gods' of money and power - which by Christ's standards is a BIG no-no, being that He spoke most about the sin of loving money above all else.

(Money, as is commonly perceived in error, is NOT necessarily evil in and of itself. It's the lust/greed for it and the abuse of it that is the sin, hence the saying "money is the root of all evil." Remember, Christ also said that there was nothing wrong with paying taxes to Caesar - "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's; give to God what is God's.")

God is being made to look like, right now, a vengeful, vindictive, aggravatable asshole (double alliteration points for me!), who simply wants worship (as most deities do), and it's his way or the highway....It is up to my fellow Christians and myself to spread his word, if we truly believe in it. We try everyday, and we're meant to try through example, through good faith, and practice, not through destroying our fellow man, and berating his senses. A lot of denominations and individuals have abused what the Bible tells us.

That's why the sensible practitioners of ANY religion - of which I do believe are the majority of religious folks out there - NEED to actively work with people whose views they may disagree with (ex. - pro-life working with pro-choice), and crack down on the asshats that are blaspheming the faiths. Yes, blaspheming. I don't for one second believe that any God condones the encouragement of outright murder and persecution of any one particular people, no matter what their race, religion, nationality, gender, sexual orientation, or any other personal factor, let alone the actual vile acts. Not any God worth devoting oneself to, anyway. The silence - and I'm not saying that there aren't any religious folks who aren't speaking out against injustices; there are a lot of them that do exist - only encourages the bullies. That's partly why we have popular stereotypes like the psycho Islamic militant, or the hellfire-and-brimstone Christian.

No, religious and non-religious will never agree on everything (particularly touchy subjects), but there are some common factors that both sides can and do agree on, and there's where people need to base their efforts on. Life is not a convert-to-win numbers contest, nor should it be. (Even God Himself said that there would be more joy in heaven over one sinner that truly repented of his evil than over a hundred faithful converts!)

[AFPheonix]

I think that you'll find that many of us on this board came from a Christian tradition and moved beyond it.
I myself grew up Plymouth Brethren and was excommunicated from the church when I married my non-christian husband and refused appeals of the congregation to not go through with my marriage or to repent afterwards.
I did the whole sunday school, Bible Club, Christian school youth group thing. I know quite a lot about how the Bible is taught to evangelical christians. I've also taken more secular classes on the Bible, too.

Personally, I know that Evangelicals are taught that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, but I find it difficult to believe that the only people who were able to discern God correctly was one little tribe out near Mesopotamia.

[DarthRetard]

(Even God Himself said that there would be more joy in heaven over one sinner that truly repented of his evil than over a hundred faithful converts!)

There lies just one piece of proof that God is not a vicious or vindictive God.

I do agree Amethyst, the lack of cooperation and the amount of dislike and bad blood between the two groups is a factor which should be overcome, but just as there are people who make the good christians look like jerks, there are people who make the people on the other side of the fence look like intolerant jerks too. It does swing both ways, and those minute groups of people skew everything we see and believe because of the way our media tends to project it onto the masses.

I may be pro-life, but that doesn't mean I hate anyone who's pro-choice, or won't speak to them to learn more about why they feel that way, or maybe even learn enough from them to change my views a little bit, you know?

We should be willing to learn from each other, in order that we can all grow as human beings, and work for a better good, regardless of what deity asks us to.

[Rapscallion]

There lies just one piece of proof that God is not a vicious or vindictive God.

2 If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith the LORD of hosts, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings: yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart.
3 Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it.

That's from Malachi 2. There are many examples of what a good guy your god isn't, available from any search page. Of course, there will be claims that the new testament lays that all to rest, but it's the same dude with a PR job.

I'm all for being nice to people, but I'll do it because it's the right thing to do - not because of a particular ancient bit of writing.

Rapscallion

[Zyanya]

There lies just one piece of proof that God is not a vicious or vindictive God.

Proofs god is not vicious or vindictive - 1
Proofs god is vicious and vindictive - infinity +1

I have read the bible.

[AFPheonix]

That's from Malachi 2. There are many examples of what a good guy your god isn't, available from any search page. Of course, there will be claims that the new testament lays that all to rest, but it's the same dude with a PR job.



Rapscallion

Not to mention than Jesus himself said that he did not come to do away with the law, but to complete it. He did not negate anything that came before him, and that includes all the stuff that people gloss over in the minor prophets, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.
God of the book of Judges was pretty gnarly, too.

[DarthRetard]

I understand what you're saying Raps and AFP, and I fully comprehend what God has/hasn't done. I don't claim to understand it all, because only God really knows, to be honest. That's where I leave it up to faith.

[AFPheonix]

And that's all anyone can expect from you. As for me, my faith isn't extinguished, it's just headed into another direction.

[DarthRetard]

Again, I understand, and I'm not pushing my faith on a single person.

[Seshat]

In the Old Testament, God created the Earth, and, eventually, man.
<snip>
We all know of the Adam and Eve betrayal story, but how many of you know about Satan (or Lucifer) and his history with God?
<snip>
Now, we move on to humans. God created us in his own image, as was said in the Bible.
<snip>
Eventually, this led to a major downspiral for our entire race, and God was frustrated, and upset.

The Bible is not a book of rules to be used for sentencing on Judgement Day, it is a guideline transcribed by people whom God chose to give his word to, in order that we may share it with others.

Yup. Know it. Read it. Studied it. Even taught it.

As for the argument that God is omnipotent and could let everyone hear about him, then yes, I could see how that makes sense Seshat, but you see, it's too easy that way. Why should we be given everything at a moment's notice when the going get's tough? It is up to my fellow Christians and myself to spread his word, if we truly believe in it.

Sorry, that doesn't make sense to me. If God is fair and kind and benevolent and generous and so on, then He won't care that Nbala the isolated pygmy hasn't heard the story of Jesus - He will care that Nbala the pygmy has been a good-hearted, loving husband and father and general all-around great person.

If God is fair and kind and all that, then He won't care that Jim the homocidal maniac has listened to the missionary in jail and mouthed the right prayers and so on - He'll care that Jim is just doing that to save his soul, not because he's actually interested in being a great person.

It's not Nbala's fault that he was born out in the wilds and never met a Christian. It's not any great virtue in Jim that he was born in a Christian nation.

Sure, it might be nice for Christians to go ahead and spread the word. It may well do your souls good. But what does it do for Nbala? Or his parents, grandparents, great-great-to-the-nth grandparents?

IF God is kind and benevolent and all that, AND cares how He is worshipped, then He will have made certain that Nbala and his great-to-the-nth grandparents knew how to do it.

Since he didn't? Then either He's a miserable bastard who's doomed Nbala's ancestors to Hell for the misfortune of being precisely where He placed them anyway - or He is content with Nbala's spiritual and religious life.

We try everyday, and we're meant to try through example, through good faith, and practice,

I believe in being generally a good person, generally a nice person, and trying to be the best you that you can be.

If Christians are hanging around me trying to do much the same - great! Let's show miserable assholes that being good, decent people makes everyone happier. We could even link arms and sing Kumbaya if you really want to.

not through destroying our fellow man, and berating his senses. A lot of denominations and individuals have abused what the Bible tells us.

You won't get any argument about that.

As for the mythology issue, if it was mythological, it would make it completely untrue.

Myth and legend are 'may or may not be true'. Troy was deemed to be mythological, but eventually a city which matched the myths was dug up and archeologically studied.

There is some evidence that the sinking of Atlantis was a volcanically-triggered landslide tsunami, combined with a volcano. The concentric circle pattern of the capital city suggests a crater-lake volcano - and if that was the one which blew, it's no surprise that we can't find much evidence of the capital city itself. Though there is a crater-lake island which might be the one, which has architecture traces that match the Minoan (I think) civilisation. I think the island is Santorini.
(NOTE: this is a memory of a Discovery channel or National Geographic channel special. Don't ask for details!)

I'm just trying to shake off this nasty stigma that all Christians preach "fire and brimstone" gospel nowadays, it really bugs me that we're stuck with that stereotype.

The problem is that the loudest Christians either preach fire and brimstone, or preach 'pay me lots of money to get to heaven'.

The rest of you - if you want good press - need to figure out some way to get the message out that they're not representative. On the other hand, many people (like me) know that they're not representative.

That's why the sensible practitioners of ANY religion - of which I do believe are the majority of religious folks out there - NEED to actively work with people whose views they may disagree with (ex. - pro-life working with pro-choice), and crack down on the asshats that are blaspheming the faiths. Yes, blaspheming.
<snip>
The silence - and I'm not saying that there aren't any religious folks who aren't speaking out against injustices; there are a lot of them that do exist - only encourages the bullies. That's partly why we have popular stereotypes like the psycho Islamic militant, or the hellfire-and-brimstone Christian.

May I have an 'Amen!'

So mote it be.

I do agree Amethyst, the lack of cooperation and the amount of dislike and bad blood between the two groups is a factor which should be overcome, but just as there are people who make the good christians look like jerks, there are people who make the people on the other side of the fence look like intolerant jerks too.
<snip>
We should be willing to learn from each other, in order that we can all grow as human beings, and work for a better good, regardless of what deity asks us to.

Evil which is done in the Name of Good is still evil.
Good which is done in the Name of Evil is still good.

Deeds matter more than the Name in which the deeds are done.

I understand what you're saying Raps and AFP, and I fully comprehend what God has/hasn't done. I don't claim to understand it all, because only God really knows, to be honest. That's where I leave it up to faith.

And I can't. It's just not part of who I am.

However, if God made me - He made me how I am. And if He is a just and loving deity, He loves me just as I am, and recognises my efforts to be the best me that I can be.

[DarthRetard]

All I can say in reply to your post Seshat, because I'm not trying to preach to you or convince you out of your own opinion, is simply this:

Maybe God does have a special sort of provision for those who never got to hear the word, but at the same time followed the basic principles that make a Christian favorable in God's eyes, I'll try and find out, and see if there's something in the Bible that indicates it.

I understand how hard it is to have faith, especially in something you cant see, but again "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the EVIDENCE of things not seen." As for God's criteria on faith, Jesus stated in a parable that if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

[Norton]

Jesus stated in a parable that if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

How can faith be measured? I thought either you have faith, or you don't. Kind of like being pregnant. You can't be just a little bit pregnant - either you are or you aren't.

I've read the Bible, probably more than once over the course of my lifetime. I see it as nothing more than an amalgam of historical documents, and mythological stories (with some poetry, letters, and geneologies thrown in). There are far too many questions for me to have faith in the Bible.

Genesis always perplexed me. God is all knowing, seeing the past, present and future. So why was he disappointed by humanity? Didn't he know when he created the Garden of Eden and Adam and Eve that things would turn out badly? Later on, he was going to wipe out all of humanity with a flood, but generously decided to let faithful Noah and his family live. Thousands of years later, it's as if the "wicked" were never destroyed. Didn't God see that even saving Noah would end up in disappointment? Some people say that free will is a gift of God, and that Adam and Eve misused it. Well why would God give humans free will only to punish them for not using it the way he wants them to? And again, could he not fortell how humanity would use free will?

Also, why would God even put us on this Earth if the true goal is to get to Heaven? Why not just create us as perfect beings straight into Heaven?
What about Hell? What kind of loving forgiving God would send his creations to an eternity of punishment and suffering for only a lifetime's worth of sins?

I have faith, but not the kind of faith most people think of. I truly believe that no matter what I do, what happens to me, what happens to others, what happens to the Earth, that everything will be OK. When I say OK, I mean it in a universal sense. If the Earth were to explode tomorrow, the universe would still exist. You and I would still exist, but not in any way we can imagine. Our matter and energy would be dispersed into space, to eventually become part of some other collective. I doubt our conscious minds (souls, if you wish) would survive the transition.

So, even though I believe we can never know what happens after death until it's our time (even then, we may "know" nothing), I have faith that whatever happens, everything will be right in the universe.

Some may say that my outlook sounds hopeless. I mean, why not become a serial killer if I really don't think there will be consequences for my soul? Well, I also think that this may be my only shot at living a sentient life on this planet, so I'd like to enjoy it and live this life to the best of my ability. I don't need the threat of Hell looming over my shoulder, nor the reward of Heaven being dangled in front of me to be a good person.