How to Get Into Heaven

[Ryu]

I dont feel they are less intelligent, less competent, or their religious expeirences are less valid to them then mine are solely based on that
I do feel that they are misguided in their search for truth and that saddens me, but their religion doesnt change how I view them. I am friends with wiccans, jewish people, agnostics, atheists, and probably some others that I dont know about because I dont ask or care. But I try to show everyone what I believe is the only truth, and while it may be arrogant to say it is the only truth, that is how I feel
My religious views arent for others, they are for God, and if they offend other people thats their problem not mine

[AFPheonix]

I dunno. If God is such a powerful force in the world and the universe, how come only a small population out of the many populations on earth were able to discern Him "correctly?
I don't think that is a logical mindset. I think that each population came up with their sets of beliefs to explain whatever it was they were discerning. And like I said earlier, I also think that shrewd leaders melded those beliefs into a religion that could also control people's behaviors.

I do feel that science has a completely different job than religion does. There are many things that religion can explain that science can't and vice-versa. I'm rather Steven Jay Gouldian in that philosophy

[Seshat]

I dont feel they are less intelligent, less competent, or their religious expeirences are less valid to them then mine are solely based on that
<snip>
But I try to show everyone what I believe is the only truth, and while it may be arrogant to say it is the only truth, that is how I feel
<snip>
My religious views arent for others, they are for God, and if they offend other people thats their problem not mine

But if their religious experiences are as valid as yours, then how can your God be the only God, your truth the only truth?

Especially in parts of the world where Christianity is dominant, there are many people who have been raised Christian, are familiar with the faith, yet have gone to other faiths to find their own Truths.

As for offending people being other peoples' problem: perhaps. But repeat offence is one of the reasons I consciously avoid places where Christians gather. It's dreadful advertising, it drives people away.

[IDrinkaRum]

I am a Christian. I am a Roman Catholic to be exact. I have friends who are Christian (more protestants than catholic), who are jewish, pagan, wiccan, etc.

I believe that God is God. No matter what religion you choose to follow. God is the same God for all religions, we just view him/her differently and worship him/her as we see fit.

I don't know if I posted this already, but here goes: God came to Mankind (and I'm using it in the vernacular to encompass the entire human race), gave mankind his/her word and then mankind chose to interpret what God had told them. No one is right and no one is wrong in how they view God. Religion is personal to each and every one of us.

God loves us all. No matter what we think of him/her.

[BroomJockey]

I don't believe in Heaven, but for the sake of the argument, I'll go with it.

With everything that God is supposed to be, I cannot understand how anyone could justify the belief that He'd allow a basically good human to burn in Hell, or be banished to Purgatory, or where ever, simply because they had the misfortune of being mislead as a youth, or even while older. If He is our Creator, then He knows our failings, and our souls. So He'd be a right prick to keep someone out of His Paradise just because they'd sadly let themselves be misled.

This argument, of course, being one reason I'm now agnostic towards any monothesism.

[BlaqueKatt]

going to be unpopular here but hey isn't that what this is for?

Heaven is a cop-out.

Why you ask?(I did not write the following)

Atheists have a stronger claim on morality than believers.

Jewish, Christian, and Muslim teaching all threaten an eternity of punishment for failure to follow the guidelines of behavior laid down by a supreme being. It's shocking that this forms the basis for the most intolerant and belligerent claims to righteousness in human history. Think about it: following the Ten Commandments isn't morality; it's obedience.

Recall from Genesis that Adam and Eve did not originally know right from wrong. This curse befell them for disobeying God's simple instruction that they not eat from the Tree of Knowledge. According to traditional Christian doctrine, lack of obedience is the source of all sin in the world.

Atheists, however, behave morally without any promise of reward or punishment. It's pure, honest, untarnished morality. Atheists are the most tolerant people around because they have the perspective to see the inherent immorality of forcing someone else to conform to your own religious code of obedience. Because of their belief that this life is the only one we'll ever have, atheists abhor violence and injustice.

To bring in current events, consider this: while Christians and Muslims may "want" peace, only atheists truly need it. Without the promise of heaven, no people could ever wage war.


If you stop telling people "everything will be ok once you die and go to heaven" maybe we'd try to fix things before then.

The Buddha was very clear that nothing he said was to be taken as doctrine. You can believe in something or not believe it as your own particular reasoning and life experience dictates, but always be ready to abandon it in the face of a superior argument. It's not that there's no room for faith, it's that doubt is also a big factor in the equation.

[ArenaBoy]

In the words of Frank Zappa:

So, when Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden, if you go for all these fairy tales, that "evil" woman convinced the man to eat the apple, but the apple came from the Tree of Knowledge. And the punishment that was then handed down, the woman gets to bleed and the guy's got to go to work, is the result of a man desiring, because his woman suggested that it would be a good idea, that he get all the knowledge that was supposedly the property and domain of God. So, that right away sets up Christianity as an anti-intellectual religion. You never want to be that smart. If you're a woman, it's going to be running down your leg, and if you're a guy, you're going to be in the salt mines for the rest of your life. So, just be a dumb fuck and you'll all go to heaven. That's the subtext of Christianity.

[Boozy]

Atheists, however, behave morally without any promise of reward or punishment.

The reason so many Christian leaders rant about the evils of atheism is because they do not believe this is possible. They cannot wrap their minds around how a person could choose to be good without reward.

What does that say about them?

[Greenday]

The past three posts have me laughing pretty hard. That's a pretty darn good way to put it. All very good points though. It's hard for me to disagree with them at all.

[Kaylyn]

My two cents, as a former Christian currently Universalist/Pagan:

The reason I chose to leave Christianity was because of the dogma of the Christians. It made no sense for God to say, "Okay, I'm gonna make about 6 billion people. I'm also going to give them freedom of choice. BUT, if they don't make the RIGHT choice, I'm gonna damn them to a pit of fiery torment for all eternity MWAHAHAHA!"

Christianity is a mythology, plain and simple. Just like every other religion out there. Ask a Roman or Greek thousands of years ago...they believed fervently in their pantheons of gods and goddesses. Yet today we call their faith a mythology. Christianity is no different. Thousands of years from now, when the faith has died out because, guess what, Christ never returned and we're living in the craphole that will undoubtedly come about because we felt we could drain all the planet's resources because he WAS coming back, he promised, and therefore it didn't matter...we'll be following another major faith and looking back at the mythology of the past...oh, those silly Christians, didn't they know the only true faith is the Flying Spaghetti Monster? The kids will be reading about it as ancient history in their social studies books.

All that being said, I turned towards a new faith (started out as Wiccan and evolved from there) because I still believed in God and needed to find a way to worship that I could agree with. I believe God knows I did not turn my back on him, just that particular type of worship. I now believe that God is way too big to be squished into one book. If that's all you base your belief on God, well, I'm not one to judge anyone, but I think faith is better served by looking around at how you can make the world a better place, not on how many people you can convert. Christianity is so focused on death, what happens when you die, life after death, death of the Savior, etc. I prefer to focus on life. All we are guaranteed to have is this moment, so I prefer to live my life moment-by-moment, making the world around me just a teensy bit better as I go along. I don't believe in a hell created by God; however, I think your own beliefs will have a profound impact on how you experience life after death. If you believe in heaven and believe you've earned it, you'll be there. If you think you deserve hell, you'll be there. I believe in reincarnation...one lifetime is just too short to experience everything, so I feel comforted in believing I'll get another chance to experience everything. I may be completely wrong, but faith isn't about what's right and wrong, it's about your own perceptions on God.

As for what someone said about a Christian being able to say they're saved and continue to commit evil acts...I think that works are evidence of faith. If you say the words and your actions don't testify to them, then it has to be asked if you truly meant the words. I doubt many people truly believe that the death row inmate that says he's found Jesus as he's being strapped down for execution is truly "saved."

(Heh, arguing both sides of a religious debate is fun!)

[Amethyst Hunter]

I now believe that God is way too big to be squished into one book. If that's all you base your belief on God, well, I'm not one to judge anyone, but I think faith is better served by looking around at how you can make the world a better place, not on how many people you can convert. Christianity is so focused on death, what happens when you die, life after death, death of the Savior, etc. I prefer to focus on life.

Totally agreed. (Agnostic here)

however, I think your own beliefs will have a profound impact on how you experience life after death. If you believe in heaven and believe you've earned it, you'll be there. If you think you deserve hell, you'll be there.

One problem: all the assholes out there are naturally going to believe that they deserve heaven (when they really don't)! And frankly, if heaven is going to be full of assholes, I don't wanna be there stuck with 'em for eternity.

[AFPheonix]

That's entirely dependent on whether there will be an afterlife. Frankly, I think I'd be ok if there isn't. Just to never wake up again. Sounds really rather peaceful.

[Difdi]

I remember a quote I found particularly enlightening, though I can't remember where I first encountered it.

"God does not need your permission."

Every religion claims to offer truth. Some of them claim to be the only source of it. But the ones that claim exclusivity can't all be right, or they'd be the same religion. But they're not. I find it highly unlikely that there is only one divine being or philosophy, however. Even the most monotheistic Christian can't deny the existence of Exodus 20:3, one of the Ten Commandments, which states "Do not have any other gods before me". If there is no God but God (something most Christians and Muslims can agree on), then why devote something as important as a Commandment to basically stating the existence of multiple Gods? If I worship the God of the Jews, Christians and Muslims as my chief God, how am I un-Christian if I also acknowledge that early Jews also worshiped the wife of God as his equal, and do the same?

For all I know, Jesus was just an unusually successful con-man and the real supreme being is the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Until I go to see for myself, I can't know. And there are so many people, of so many mutually exclusive religions willing to scream that only they are right, how can I know? Even faith only goes so far.

It is better, I think, to be as good a person as I can in my life, and not worry about what comes after. I take the atheist view that someone who is moral without fear of reward or punishment is more worthy and good than someone who only obeys laws from fear of consequences, or only is good in order to "earn" rewards in heaven. As if a supreme being can't see through such deception to see the truth in our souls?

If I am wrong, then an omniscient, loving God will know I did my best. If he Made me, then he is to blame for any flaws, as any craftsman who turns out flawed work is to blame. I am only to blame for those flaws that I do not struggle to overcome. My success or failure in this is ultimately irrelevant as long as I persistently and honestly try. If God is not such a being, then he is unworthy of my worship and allegiance, and free will is nothing but a vicious and deceptive lie. There is a being in the Judeo-Christian-Muslim mythos who fits that description, but he is not God.

[Shangri-laschild]

Lets say that there is one true church (not something I actually believe). I can't see how, if someone of a different faith was a good person and tried to make themselves a better person they won't be accepted.

I do believe in God, though I haven't completely worked out what exactly I do believe yet. I do lean more towards the idea that it all basically is about the same God and there are different ways of worshiping.

From bible study classes I remember there being a lot about being a good person and trying to do the right thing (even though you're not perfect, doing your best). I was always taught that religion is about you and God while churches are made by people. People aren't perfect. This doesn't mean that churches are evil. It just means that while the message might be good, the people leading them aren't perfect. I'm not saying I have any problem with going to church. I actually like the sense of community that some of them can bring.

[DarthRetard]

Alright, it seems like we have a lot of non-christians on this forum, and some are bashing the religion pretty heavily. I'm happy to see that the supporters in the negation side are NOT trying to quote the bible against us, as many are wont to do, thanks to ignorance, and stupidity, and lack of knowledge on the subject.

Kaylyn: Even during the days of the Romans, Christianity still existed, and as Roman beliefs waned and became referred to as mythology, Christianity still remained. You can't prove Jesus never came back, and until you take me back into a time machine, and show me a grave three days after Christ's crucifixion, and show me a body that is My Lord And Savior's, then you have me convinced.

I think there's some confusion on the issue of God, so I'll throw my two cents in to try and help out. I'm not speaking for anyone else, and I don't claim to be, for the record. Mind you, this is how I was raised as a Christian, and my beliefs as I've grown in and away from the Church and developed my relationship with God.

God is being made to look like, right now, a vengeful, vindictive, aggravatable asshole (double alliteration points for me!), who simply wants worship (as most deities do), and it's his way or the highway. You're right, in one sense, it's his way, or the highway (to hell), and for me, I follow the religion not because of fear of Judgement Day, but because I know the guidelines set before me in this book of His words gives me guidance for any trouble I may need.

In the Old Testament, God created the Earth, and, eventually, man. He created man because he desired companionship, and fellowship. In Genesis, it speaks of Adam walking and talking with God, not God making Adam do dishes, and build sculptures, and worship and revel in his name. He simply wanted THANKS, because you know, creating an entire existence is just a bit harder than Through The Fire and The Flames on Guitar Hero 3.

We all know of the Adam and Eve betrayal story, but how many of you know about Satan (or Lucifer) and his history with God? Lucifer was of the highest Choir of Angels, and was one of God's most valued. He was said to be beautiful, to where it became his prerogative to usurp God's very place of power. Lucifer and his angels whom he'd sullied, fought Michael(whom you see later speaking to John The Baptist's parents and Mary the Virgin) and his Angels, and lost, to be banished to a place we now know as hell.

There you have your dichotomy of Good, and Evil.

Now, we move on to humans. God created us in his own image, as was said in the Bible. Now, to say that we all look like God, is a confusing idea, because, we're not infallible creatures. Which is not to say we never were, because God created us as pure as undriven snow, and again, we had the privelege of walking and talking with God until we were driven by our natural naivety(sp?) and trust/belief in the goodness of all.

Eventually, this led to a major downspiral for our entire race, and God was frustrated, and upset. We were betraying everything he'd made us to be, and us, being in his image, were not being what we should have. Since this, in the Bible it tells us we are all born into sin, and God even recognizes our shortcomings with the verse "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." He recognizes that, he truly does, in the book of Job, for instance. He proved that Job, no matter what God threw at him, was faithful in God's diligence and dedication to those who showed faith in him.

The Bible is not a book of rules to be used for sentencing on Judgement Day, it is a guideline transcribed by people whom God chose to give his word to, in order that we may share it with others.

As for the argument that God is omnipotent and could let everyone hear about him, then yes, I could see how that makes sense Seshat, but you see, it's too easy that way. Why should we be given everything at a moment's notice when the going get's tough? It is up to my fellow Christians and myself to spread his word, if we truly believe in it. We try everyday, and we're meant to try through example, through good faith, and practice, not through destroying our fellow man, and berating his senses. A lot of denominations and individuals have abused what the Bible tells us.