A question for christians accepting of homosexuality

[Kimmik]

I follow the judge not least ye be judge philosophy. It is not my place to decide what is a sin and what is not. I have enough to worry about trying to live my own life.

[HYHYBT]

Jesus was 30 years old before he began his Ministry. In that day and age, you didn't have many people unmarried at that age. Did he have another wife that died prior to him accepting his role? Did he leave that family behind? Did they stay at home with the rest of the family while He and Mary went out? Was he married to Mary Magdalene? Was he gay? Far too many unanswered questions that will remain that way.

Well, assuming for the moment that he knew what would happen (not an unreasonable assumption for the son of God) it makes sense. Think about how widowed, divorced, or abandoned women and their children had to live at that time. It would have been wrong to marry and start a family with the intention of leaving them and eventually getting killed, not to mention the likelihood of future generations worshipping his living descendants (which would hardly have been good for the descendants either). A gay relationship wouldh't present most of those problems but would, at the least, have made it all the more difficult to get people to take the ministry seriously.

I had a sunday school teacher who taught it to us a bit different. God told them to "go forth and multiply" only they couldn't in Eden. The original sin was actually sex and so they because mortal or however it describes it and left Eden so that they could actually multiply.

I read somewhere a theory that, as Eve was a clone of Adam, they were originally identical. Since the Fall hadn't happened yet, there was no death and therefore no need to reproduce; they became male and female when they were kicked out.

[Shangri-laschild]

Why not? No multiplication tables?

Well no, they hadn't taken the fruit of knowledge yet :-p

I read somewhere a theory that, as Eve was a clone of Adam, they were originally identical. Since the Fall hadn't happened yet, there was no death and therefore no need to reproduce; they became male and female when they were kicked out.

I believe in the bible it says when the left that there was a physical change though I could be wrong. I think the theory I had been taught was that they were more similar to god and were possibly at the time immortal to some extent. It's been a long time since I heard this though so.

[smileyeagle1021]

my question to you is: why single out christians as inherently anti-gay? especially using a verse from leviticus, which is also a part of the torah. by your logic, doesn't this make jewish people inherently anti-gay? and what about similar passages in the koran? yet you've said nothing about anyone except christians.

for the record, i'm not a christian myself, just someone who is wondering why you're generalizing about one group while the same accusations could be made against others using the same passage you use as evidence.

To be blunt, in the United States Muslims and Jews aren't responsible for equal rights being denied to homosexuals.
In Utah the strongest forces to keep it legal for discrimination against homosexuals have been the LDS church and it's members... all other denominations come in second place.
I've also yet to see Muslims marching with "Allah hates fags" signs.
I've yet to read the headlines about the millions of dollars donated by Jews to anti-equality campaigns.
And as someone else mentioned, I am not familiar with the Koran or the Torah, what I know is the Bible and it's black and white message (as currently translated) that I am evil and a "good" Christian should kill me or at the very least shun me.

That and yes, I do have a vendetta against the church... I had one church (LDS) promise me that I would be "cured" then basically pushed me out when a quick dunk didn't actually fix it. Then had another church lie to me and tell me that I would be accepted before letting it slip that I was about the most vile thing that could walk this Earth. And then every day I must wake up and be reminded of it by hearing our local christian leadership brag about how they are keeping homosexuals second class citizens.

[Slytovhand]

Why not? No multiplication tables?

That's why they needed the Sum of God...

I'm no Christian type, but my whole take on it is rather simple - and simplistic. If God didn't say it, then it doesn't really count! I don't recall God making anyone perfect, nor was He strongly inclined to correct people's mistakes on an individual level..(not that I know anything of this Bible book people keep going on about). So, the only ones who really got to say anything about 'rules' regarding these new fangled religions were Moses (cos God and him had a one-on-one.. and sent him a fax - well, older version of a fax ), and JC himself...

So, Mr Leviticus... meh.. his own personal rant. Mr Paul... meh, his own personal rant. You get my stance!

[Hyena Dandy]

But as was explained, the bible AS CURRENTLY TRANSLATED is just that. A translation. The bible as we have it is a translation of of what are supposedly second-hand accounts of the life of Jesus etc. Except Paul's letters, which are supposedly translations of the writings of a guy who knew Jesus but doesn't write his biography.

Its a horrible mistake to read it literally, especially to read it literally in English. There are words used which convey things which don't exist in English.

My view on it is that the morality of my sexuality is a matter between me and God, and it will be resolved when I'm judged. Its not between me and anyone else.

I also believe that whether you're Catholic (Unam Sanctum) or Protestant (The Doctrine of Two Cities) the Church has no right to interfere in this. And practically every Christian sect believes that someone has to behave morally out of a desire to be moral, not out of being forced. It is inappropriate to try to force people through laws to behave otherwise.

[jackfaire]

http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1748

Thought it was amusing and somewhat related.

[Rapscallion]

I've also yet to see Muslims marching with "Allah hates fags" signs.

They don't need to.

http://www.well.com/user/queerjhd/sx...ctreatment.htm

Fairly accepted in the Islamic world that having happy bum fun time equates a death sentence.

The average outraged muslim is more likely to be worried about a cartoon or a book or what have you.

The main reason there's no signage and marching from such groups is that they're not completely daft. It's one thing for a minority such as Phelps and his loonies to do what they do, but for a small number of brown people to do that? In a country where, "He needed killing," has been accepted in a court of law? After the 9/11 attacks and the subsequent offensives against radical islam in the middle east? In a nation that financially backs their greatest peeve, Israel? Not completely daft, mate.

For the record, I think both groups are fuckwits who haven't had the presence of self to make up their own minds about what difference it actually makes, but the reasons muslims don't make that sort of protest is pretty much down to self-preservation.

You mention jews as well. Reform jews don't really care for the most part, in my experience. Orthodox jews keep to themselves and I've got no idea what they think.

Rapscallion

[Lace Neil Singer]

King James Bible
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

American King James Version
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be on them.

Which, pardon my language is fucking ironic, seeing as King James was gay.

[BlaqueKatt]

And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

Huh I was taught differently-That the original sin was not Eve being tempted by the serpent but Adam disobeying God and then blaming his wife for it rather than admit what he had done.

You mention jews as well. Reform jews don't really care for the most part, in my experience. Orthodox jews keep to themselves and I've got no idea what they think.

Tolerance
Ask a Rabbi
He goes into great depth on the topic-and into the Torah/Talmud

Gist of it is:

Not extending love and compassion or judging someone goes against the Torah. Just as a parent doesn't stop loving a child because they misbehave, God/Yahweh doesn't stop loving his children. Jewish persons are forbidden to judge another person for what they might consider improper as that is God/Yaweh's job.

[Kheldarson]

Saw something a while back that applies here. History Channel did a two part show about the Ten Commandments and their interpretation. What it boiled down to was self-preservation. And if you look at the rest of the chapter that surrounds that particular verse in Leviticus, it's a lot about don't sleep with family, the animals, a woman who's bleeding, etc. All of it will get you killed. Even if it wasn't a literal death sentence, there's also the question of "Can you get continuing viable healthy genetics out of these pairings?" And the answer is mostly no. So genetically, you're killing yourself anyway. So the point is you don't engage in incest, homosexuality, bestiality, etc. because it kills your genetic stock.

[Lady_Foxfire]

As a Christian, my thoughts on homosexuality basically boil down to:
1) In my heart, I don't believe that homosexuality is a sin, and am inclined to believe that the relevant Bible passages were mistranslated or inserted by someone with an agenda.
2) even if it is a sin, lots of things are sins that I don't see people getting so worked up about. Lying on your tax returns is a sin, and one that negatively affects our society (the money that is being wrongly returned to the taxpayers is not going to fund public work projects like new roads or schools), and I don't see anyone holding signs saying "God hates tax cheats".
3) Even if homosexuality is a sin, and one worth getting excited about, America isn't a Christian country, despite what some people seem to think. Unless congress can prove that homosexuality is such a threat to the fabric of society that it warrents denying people their civil rights (hint: it isn't), then they should stay out of religion and people's private lives.

[crashhelmet]

I'll throw my official stance into this.

Do I think Homosexuality is a sin? Yes, but it's not the attraction to the same sex that's sinful. It's the act itself.

It's a sin of lust just like any other form of sex out of wedlock is. The sin of homosexuality is no greater than the sin that is pre-marital sex and an even lesser sin than me being the father of a 3 year old bastard.

I'll go a step further and say that any sexual act between a husband and wife with the intention of NOT pro-creating is a sin. It doesn't matter if it's in the "proper" hole or not. Condom? Pill? IUD? Rhythm Method? Pull it out and spray it on her face? All acts of lust and therefore a sin.

Thankfully, the Catholic Church teaches that I can absolve myself of these sins through Confession, and/or Contrition based on the simple fact that God is understanding and forgiving. He doesn't expect us all to be like Job. He knows we are constantly tempted and that we are not perfect.

That's my two pennies anyway...

CH

[Ghel]

...and an even lesser sin than me being the father of a 3 year old bastard.

Self-loathing seems to be a common theme among Christians.

I'll go a step further and say that any sexual act between a husband and wife with the intention of NOT pro-creating is a sin.

So, are you saying that infertile couples should never have sex?


Here's a song on this topic: Defenders of Marriage by Roy Zimmerman.

[jackfaire]

So, are you saying that infertile couples should never have sex?

.

I think rather what he is saying is that they will be sinning but if they are faithful it won't matter.