A question for christians accepting of homosexuality

[protege]

It's a sin of lust just like any other form of sex out of wedlock is. The sin of homosexuality is no greater than the sin that is pre-marital sex and an even lesser sin than me being the father of a 3 year old bastard.

Uh, guys...do I even have to mention the Mary, Joseph, Jesus thing here? Last time I checked, they weren't exactly married either. Meaning, that Jesus was *technically* a bastard. If that's the case, then why is what they did OK, but not when anyone else does it?

Case in point, I have a cousin who was raised in a strict Christian household. My uncle seemed to think that sex of any sort was evil. Of course, this was also the same guy who went *ballistic* when we were watching Top Gun, and one line referred to "getting laid." Up until that point, he'd make comments about how people weren't supposed to have sex unless they were married. That is, until my cousin got knocked up. Almost immediately, he reversed his stand on things, and goes on constantly about how great his granddaughter is Needless to say, quite a few of us (myself included) have taken great delight in pointing out all the hypocrisy...

[crashhelmet]

Self-loathing seems to be a common theme among Christians.

It's what drives us to better ourselves. It's what drives me anyway.

So, are you saying that infertile couples should never have sex?

That would depend on the situation, I guess. It was explained to me once that when it comes to sex, the difference between "love" and "lust" is the intention and action involved.

"Normal" and "Natural" intercourse (read: Vaginal with no contraceptive methods?) between husband and wife would, in most instances, be an expression of love. Whether or not conception occurs, or even can occur, doesn't matter in that case.

When the intercourse is not "normal" or "natural" is where it becomes an act of lust.

Now, I've never asked what the Church's stance is on intentional sterilization, like a vasectomy or tube ligation, so the only answer that I can come back with is that if it's a sin, God will forgive them if they seek it.

There's a verse that I'm going to have to pour through the New Testament to find again that may apply here as well. It says something along the lines of God doesn't punish those that are unable to recognize they are sinning. Children that don't know better, mentally handicapped, etc. I would think it would apply to the unintentionally infertile in acts of "love."

CH

[crashhelmet]

Uh, guys...do I even have to mention the Mary, Joseph, Jesus thing here? Last time I checked, they weren't exactly married either. Meaning, that Jesus was *technically* a bastard. If that's the case, then why is what they did OK, but not when anyone else does it?

The Bible teaches that Jesus was an immaculate conception. He is not the son of Joseph nor was he the product of pre-marital sex. "This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit." - Matthew 1:18

At the time of conception Mary and Joseph were betrothed, or engaged, but Matthew 1:24 says "When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife."

Matthew 1:25 states "But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus."

To me, it's not the same as what I and others have done. While he may be technically a bastard by reasons of pre-marital conception, I would think this would be the one and only exception to the rule.

CH

[ladyneeva]

What if you know you are infertile, are you still allowed to have sex with your spouse?

Also I find it rather... interesting that you claim homosexuality is a sin because it's sex outside of marriage, when people with that belief are the ones on the leading edge of the drive to bar marriage between same sex partners.

Christianity is just like everything else in the world. A bunch of people who got together and decided to create a bunch of rules for everyone else to follow, rules which don't apply to them because they aren't doing the banned acts to begin with.

[HYHYBT]

Uh, guys...do I even have to mention the Mary, Joseph, Jesus thing here? Last time I checked, they weren't exactly married either. Meaning, that Jesus was *technically* a bastard. If that's the case, then why is what they did OK, but not when anyone else does it?

When anyone else does what, exactly? Conceive without having sex?

[Kheldarson]

Acutally, an infertile married couple can have sex without it being a sin. There are several things needed to have what the Catholic Church considers a marriage: fidelity, indissolubility, and openness to children. On the topic of openness to children, the rule here is if you are preventing the child. Homosexuality, birth control, abortion, etc. are all ways to prevent a child from being brought forth from a union. Infertility is not one. It is still possible for God to bring forth a child from such a union should He desire as long as you as a couple are not doing anything to prevent Him. That's the difference.

[Parrothead]

The Bible teaches that Jesus was an immaculate conception. He is not the son of Joseph nor was he the product of pre-marital sex.

I thought "immaculate conception" meant that Mary was absolved of all her sins, so she could carry/deliver the son of God?

Link

[ladyneeva]

I doubt anyone is using homosexuality as a form of birth control.

What about people who happen to be infertile and are glad they are, because they don't want to have children?

Also... is adoption a sin? Because it is basically the same as saying you didn't want the kid in the first place (at least, from the perspective of a culture that actually believes you can go to hell for using any form of birth control).

[Lace Neil Singer]

Also, it is technically possible to conceive a child without having sex. Are all these people absolved of sin, cuz they didn't have sex but still created a child?

[Fryk]

I thought "immaculate conception" meant that Mary was absolved of all her sins, so she could carry/deliver the son of God?
[/URL]

That's correct. The Immaculate Conception deals with Mary's birth, not Jesus's. The Virgin Birth deals with him.

[smileyeagle1021]

Also I find it rather... interesting that you claim homosexuality is a sin because it's sex outside of marriage, when people with that belief are the ones on the leading edge of the drive to bar marriage between same sex partners.

this is the biggest point I've made to my christian counterparts, it wouldn't be sex outside of marriage if marriage were allowed... if that is their big complaint then it is also time to enforce that rule with the politicians who are fighting gay equality (yes, I'm looking at you Nevada governor Gibbons)

[Kheldarson]

I doubt anyone is using homosexuality as a form of birth control.

What about people who happen to be infertile and are glad they are, because they don't want to have children?

Also... is adoption a sin? Because it is basically the same as saying you didn't want the kid in the first place (at least, from the perspective of a culture that actually believes you can go to hell for using any form of birth control).

I wasn't saying they were using it as a form of birth control, just that according to Church reasoning, it puts it on par with it. No openness to naturally having a child = no marriage. As for the adoption thing, my understanding is that it's based on the circumstances. Like, yes, you want to have children, and are planning on having children, and are married, but something major has happened that would prevent you and your spouse from properly supporting a child. So in the best interest of you and the child, you give the child up. That's different from "Oh, I don't want to take responsibility". And the infertile and happy, well, that one, again according to what I understand from my reading and talks with priests and others, that's more on what would happen if they actually had a child. Can't determine it until then.

Also, it is technically possible to conceive a child without having sex. Are all these people absolved of sin, cuz they didn't have sex but still created a child?

And this would be getting into the Church's stance on in vitro and other artificial semination options...most of which are yes, considered a sin.

[Arcade Man D]

Since the topic has started to include this other topic, I suppose I should add my beliefs on sex outside of marriage. (Short background note: my religious leanings are American Baptist, a denomination that believes heavily in the idea that each individual is capable of interpreting scripture.)

First, my view of marriage is any long-term relationship where the partners have exchanged vows of some variety expressing their unceasing love for each other. I don't believe that it matters to God whether you got married in a Catholic church, a Baptist church, a Jewish ceremony, or a Wiccan handfasting, or any other ceremony that suits the particular couple. What matters is the expression of undying love, or to use the phrase from the most popular wedding vows, "until death do us part."

That said, I believe that sex is meant for such devoted couples to express their love for each other, whether or not they want a child, or even actively attempt to prevent conception.

My earlier statement on what I believe about homosexuality and whether or not it's a sin (for those that don't want to skim back, I believe it isn't) works perfectly in light of this, even though I do believe both extra-marital and pre-marital sex to be sins, because God is not limited by laws written by humans. Whether or not a gay couple can get a legally sanctioned marriage with all the rights that go along with it, God knows what is in their hearts, and whether they have devoted themselves to each other in the manner I've mentioned above.


As for my views on homosexuality, to expound on how I came to them, I have a very critical mind. I delved into finding sources about the translations (as I don't have knowledge of Ancient Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic), and how certain words were picked. I coupled this with the scientific studies that have shown homosexuality to be an inborn trait, and not a choice, to come to my concusion. I believe that God gave humanity free will and minds to think with not so we could blindly obey Him, but so that we could use them.

Short version for those who want a summary:

Homosexuality is not a sin.
Sex outside of a devoted relationship like marriage is.
Whether or not sex is premarital/extramarital has no reliance on legal definitions of marriage, but on the actual commitment.

[Fire_on_High]

It is still possible for God to bring forth a child from such a union should He desire as long as you as a couple are not doing anything to prevent Him. That's the difference.

No offense, but for a God who parted a sea, and all the other things in the Bible....is a thin layer of rubber particularly gonna PREVENT him if he decides you're gonna have a kid?

[Ghel]

There are several things needed to have what the Catholic Church considers a marriage: fidelity...

Well, that's between the people in the marriage, isn't it? Why should it be the church's business if the couple has an "open" relagionship?

...indissolubility...

This kind of made sense when the church was founded and people only lived 40-50 years. Now that people live twice that long, it's even more horrible to force people to stay in an unhappy marriage their entire lives.

...and openness to children.

Are you saying that couples that have made the conscious choice not to have children shouldn't be allowed to marry?

Granted, you're free to believe whatever you like in the privacy of your own mind. It's just when you or your church tries to legislate based on your beliefs and force them on the rest of the country that there's a problem.