A question for christians accepting of homosexuality

[smileyeagle1021]

Leviticus 20:13 "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them"

This is a challenge I have presented to my mother, she can't come up with an answer, so I'll pose it to y'all.

I have had several people criticize me for jumping to the conclusion that Christians are inherently anti-gay. So, here's my challenge to those christians who aren't anti-gay: How do you reconcile that verse, which blatantly calls for me and anyone like me to be put to death, with your claim that you are accepting of homosexuality?
My mother has been the most honest when she said she can't, all she can explain is that she's not that good of a Christian. So I'm curious how a good Christian reconciles those two positions.

And for the record, there are two reasons I stay in Utah, the second one is really just an extension of the first. First I don 't have the money to move... moving to ANYWHERE that is accepting (translation, liberal cities) would cost me more than I have. Second is that Utah is where the schools I can afford are (once again, coming back to money). I have every intention to get the fuck out of this cesspool as soon as I am able.

[Teysa]

I'll bite on this one. Leviticus was written as part of the old covenant. Under that covenant the laws were much stricter because you had to be perfect or else. A man lying with another man, for instance, breaks God's command to replenish the earth. Don't forget that the law against homosexuality was not the only law to carry the death penalty.

Under the new covenant, the only laws that apply are (paraphrased) Love God with all your heart, spirit, and soul and love your neighbor as yourself. Thus, the levitical law saying that homosexuals should be put to death is no longer relevant and it is not a contradiction to be a Christian and still be accepting of homosexuality.

[Seshat]

I am no longer Christian, but here's my views:

The big ones:

Matthew 22:34-40
When the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they cme together, and one of them, a teacher of the Law, tries to trap him with a question. "Teacher," he asked, "which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"
Jesus answered "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the greatest and the most important commandment. The second most important commandment is like it: 'Love your neighbour as you love yourself.' The whole Law of Moses and the teachings of the prophets depend on these two commandments.'"

John 13:34-35
"And now I give you a new commandment: love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. If you have love for one another, then everyone will know that you are my disciples."


Jesus on judgement:

Matthew 7:1-6 "Do not judge others, so that God will not judge you," (etc etc, don't look at the speck in your brother's eye and ignore the log in your own)
Luke 7:37-41 covers the same ground. Don't judge others.



Finally, if a Christian wants to rant at homosexuals about their actions, they should look at the log in their own eyes. Here's some Leviticus rules that didn't get overruled by Jesus, many of which aren't being obeyed by most modern Christians:

Offerings in general. (When was the last time you brought a bull to be sacrificed?)
The purification of women after childbirth.
Priests examining skin diseases and sores, & purification rituals.
Priests examining mildew & purification rituals.
Rules regarding bodily discharges.
Various other rules regarding sex.
Leaving certain sections of the harvest for the poor.
Assorted honesty and fairness rules. (most good Christians do obey these ones)
Never crossbreeding animals.
Never planting two kinds of seed in one field.
Never wearing mixed fibres.
Never trimming the hair on the sides of your head, or trimming your beard.
Assorted rules regarding other religions. (most do obey these too)
Never cursing one's parents.
Obeying the Sabbath rules.
Celebrating Passover, Harvest, (Jewish-style) New Year, the Day of Atonement, The Festival of Shelters.
Bringing olive oil to fill the temple lamps.
Leaving all fields fallow every seventh year.
The Year of Restoration & rules against the permanent sale of property - nothing belongs to individuals, it all belongs to God. (Leviticus 25:8-17 and 23-34)
Giving interest-free loans to poor people who happen to live near you.



Oh, and Leviticus 19:20-22 talks about sex slavery as normal and ordinary.
Leviticus 25:39-55 has rules about who can and can't be slaves, why, and what you can do with them.

[HYHYBT]

Most simply, we don't follow the REST of Leviticus, on the idea that it was meant for ancient Israel. We don't do animal sacrifice, or separate meat and milk, or demolish our houses whenever mold grows in them. So the anomaly, really, is that some people pick that one law from among the others and say it still applies.

Which I've heard translates at least as well as "two men must not have sex in a woman's bed" anyway.

And that's only if you want to insist on the entire Bible being both inerrant and literally true. Many Christians do not.

[AdminAssistant]

And that's only if you want to insist on the entire Bible being both inerrant and literally true. Many Christians do not.

THIS.

I may believe in the Christian God, but that does not mean I follow the Bible - a book written by men and edited heavily by the Catholic Church. Excuse me if I don't put a lot of stock in it.

[joe hx]

I'll third HYHYBT. I don't subscribe to the bible being the all-true, inerrant book some do. It was made by man.

I see the bible as a story of humanity. It goes like this:

God creates man. Man asks for rules to follow. God gives man rules to follow. Man does not follow said rules. God forgives man and says don't worry about it.

[gremcint]

as for replenishing the earth, I think we've replenished enough. The bible has been translated multiples times by men and some of the original meaning has been lost and the bible contradicts itself, anyone choosing to follow it literally word for word is just not hinking for themselves, as for those that are homophobic they would still be homophobic without the bible most likely.

Honestly I eat shellfish, I will not sell my daughter into slavery

[Hyena Dandy]

THIS.

I may believe in the Christian God, but that does not mean I follow the Bible - a book written by men and edited heavily by the Catholic Church. Excuse me if I don't put a lot of stock in it.

And as a Catholic, even I don't put a lot of stock in it being literally true. Especially the self-contradictory parts.

For example.

If Matthew, Mark, and Luke are literally true, John is false.

Hell, if Genesis Chapter 1 is true, Genesis Chapter 2 is false. Seeing as God makes the plants in Genesis 1:11, and man in 1:27. Then He rests and remakes them the other way around in Book 2.





And if I don't obey most of Leviticus, why should that be an exception?

[BlaqueKatt]

Leviticus 20:13 "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them"


I knew a Catholic priest that put the emphasis on that part-and merely saw it as an extension of "do not commit adultery" or "do not have more than one partner at a time"-it's open to interpretation.

[Ghel]

I'm no longer a Christian, but I never believed in the "literal" bible, either. People can justify almost anything by choosing bible verses that support their views, and ignoring verses that don't.

[guywithashovel]

You might be able to argue that this verse in Leviticus was overruled by Jesus. However, there are a few verses in the New Testament that talk about homosexuality, too. Here's one example.

"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God."

That was 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. Essentially, it is saying that homosexuals, among some other groups, will not inherit the kingdom of God. So how do gay-friendly Christians reconcile this one? I do know that 1 Corinthians was a letter of reprimand that Paul sent to the church in Corinth, so perhaps they say that for some reason it only applied to them (as they often do with the commandment that women remain silent in the church, which is also found in 1 Corinthians). Or maybe the Greek word that is translated "homosexuals" in this verse has multiple meanings in English.

For myself, I have no objection whatsoever to homosexuality or homosexuals. And honestly, I really don't care if someone else does think it's a sin or immoral, as long as they aren't trying to stop others from marrying who they want and prevent them from having equal protection under the law.

[Arcade Man D]

That was 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. Essentially, it is saying that homosexuals, among some other groups, will not inherit the kingdom of God. So how do gay-friendly Christians reconcile this one? I do know that 1 Corinthians was a letter of reprimand that Paul sent to the church in Corinth, so perhaps they say that for some reason it only applied to them (as they often do with the commandment that women remain silent in the church, which is also found in 1 Corinthians). Or maybe the Greek word that is translated "homosexuals" in this verse has multiple meanings in English.

Actually, the Greek word that has been translated as "homosexuals" in most places in the New Testament most likely means alternately "male prostitutes" or "one who purchases a male prostitute". In New Testament-era Greek, there was no word for "homosexual", in fact.


As for the "women should stay silent", well, according to 1 Corinthians 7: 1-7, we can see Paul's general ideas about women.

1 Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry. 2 But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. 3 The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. 5 Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6 I say this as a concession, not as a command. 7 I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.

Basically, Paul wishes everyone could be as awesome and sinless as him and says that marriage is a concession to the fact that no one else has his AWESOME self-control and can remain a virgin for the remainder of their life.

(Yes, I have some issues with Paul, and especially his ego. What gave it away?)



Finally, the only real mention of homosexuality in the New Testament is the healing of the centurion.

The Faith of the Centurion
5 When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. 6 "Lord," he said, "my servant lies at home paralyzed and in terrible suffering."

7 Jesus said to him, "I will go and heal him."

8 The centurion replied, "Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, 'Go,' and he goes; and that one, 'Come,' and he comes. I say to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it."

10 When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, "I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! It will be done just as you believed it would." And his servant was healed at that very hour.

The Greek word translated "servant" in this passage (I use NIV because it's what I'm used to, it's translated "slave" in others) is actually one meaning "beloved slave" with the implication of, being the male lover of said centurion. Note that Jesus' reaction is not to admonish the centurion, nor to say a word about it, but to simply heal him because of this centurion's faith.

[Seshat]

That was 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. Essentially, it is saying that homosexuals, among some other groups, will not inherit the kingdom of God. So how do gay-friendly Christians reconcile this one?

Paul is not Christ. Paul was the precursor, IMO, of the crazy type of "Christian".

[BlaqueKatt]

Yes, I have some issues with Paul, and especially his ego. What gave it away?

you aren't the only one-Paul's "permission" to speak the gospel came supposedly from a private communication from God-so for all we know, he just wanted to impose what he thought on everyone else, as there is no proof of his claim. Also Corinthians was written before the Gospels

[joe hx]

(Yes, I have some issues with Paul, and especially his ego. What gave it away?)

I love the part where he tells people not to brag about their faith, then he goes on and on about how he doesn't need to brag, because he's awesome, and has done this and this and this... Forget which letter it is, though.