Question for anyone useing Leviticus to oppose gay marriage, etc

[Boozy]

That video should be legally required for all Christians to view on a daily basis until they realize just how insane and fucking stupid they are.

Seriously?

That's a ridiculous overstatement. The average Christian is neither clinically insane nor mentally challenged.

I think you mean "biblical literalists".

[Wingates_Hellsing]

Seriously?

That's a ridiculous overstatement. The average Christian is neither clinically insane nor mentally challenged.

I think you mean "biblical literalists".

I do believe that's what he meant, or at least, that's what I took it to mean when I responded to it...

Perhaps everyone should keep a running list of actual meanings of things they often say in their signatures. Except that would probably end up being kinda long *silent pondering*

[Ghel]

Although most Christians probably wouldn't realize it, anybody who claims to believe in the Bible is (at least a little bit) hypocritical. So many passages either contradict each other, contradict what science has discovered, or conflict with modern moral systems that a Christian either has to believe everything mentioned in the link Vagabond posted or they have to ignore large portions of the Bible. I don't think that Christians are necessarily insane or stupid (any more than any other group), but those who have thought about their faith and still believe seem to go through some logical gymnastics in order to justify their faith.

There seems to be more different meanings associated with the word "Christian" than any other English word. I try to ask people what they believe and why, because otherwise I really don't know. If people would just explain their beliefs to start with, it would save the 20 questions and the false assumptions that tend to come up in the discussion.

[smileyeagle1021]

Seriously?

That's a ridiculous overstatement. The average Christian is neither clinically insane nor mentally challenged.

I think you mean "biblical literalists".

biblical literalist would be a good way of saying it... but I was referring more to the cultural christian... the person who can't be bothered to read the Bible and just listens to whatever the charismatic man (and it's always a man) at the front of the church tells them without question.

[Hobbs]

biblical literalist would be a good way of saying it... but I was referring more to the cultural christian... the person who can't be bothered to read the Bible and just listens to whatever the charismatic man (and it's always a man) at the front of the church tells them without question.

That's why I like the Catechism. It's like an Encyclopedia Catholica, and you can find references from Councils and Biblical passages as to why the Church teaches what it does. I even found Protestants who wished their own churches had something like that.

[BigGiant]

First post here:

I think the problem lies not with Christians as a whole, but the leadership of certain sects...

Most reasonable folks don't have a problem with Gay/Lesbian folks on a logical level. What happens is that the leadership needs to find a cause to stay in their position of power and to "rile people up".....

I think every generation has their targets (at least in the US)....Blacks probably filled 2 to 3 generations....for a time in the 80's it was the "feminazis", and at the moment it seems to be gay/lesbians.

Please don't judge a very large group of people based upon what their 'leaders' preach...most don't actually believe what their leaders preach in the first place.


It is actually, IMO, a big problem in the US today....I think we're 'dying' for a leader, yet we haven't quite found a good one yet, so people latch onto whatever is around...This current economic downturn/recession/depression I think is going to fix that problem, as long as folks wake up and realize that the current system is flawed and that we need some real leaders....

Sorry, got a bit off-topic...but I think as with everything, it is all inter-related.

[smileyeagle1021]

Please don't judge a very large group of people based upon what their 'leaders' preach...most don't actually believe what their leaders preach in the first place.

sadly exit polls would indicate that they do believe what their leaders preach.
Amendmend 3 in Utah (the one banning gay marriage, civil unions, domestic partnerships, or any other program that even pretends to give homosexuals equal rights) the vote (it went to ballot) was roughly 70% for, 30% against. It is no coincidence that 70% of the state belongs to conservative Christian faiths that teach that homosexuality is a sin and argue against gay marriage using Leviticus.
Flash forward to 2008 with Prop 8... Mormon leadership said that a good Mormon was to donate to protect traditional marriage... a huge number of Mormon's only question was "how much".
Utah has homeless shelters that specialize in handling homeless teens who parent's were told by the church that they must choose between their church and their child's orientation... and they chose their church. Those are the lucky ones... the unlucky ones get sent to ex-gay camps to be emotionally berated and abused, given electroshock therapy, and in less ethical (sic) places even physically beaten.
Sadly I'm not judging a group by it's leaders... I'm judging it by a very visible segment of their population who prove that the leaders aren't just spewing hot air.

[Ghel]

Most reasonable folks don't have a problem with Gay/Lesbian folks on a logical level. What happens is that the leadership needs to find a cause to stay in their position of power and to "rile people up"....

A big part of the problem is that the "ordinary" Christians, those whose beliefs don't get in the way of their everyday lives, legitimize these sorts of leaders. They don't speak out against the radicals. They let the Pat Robertsons and Jerry Falwells of the world get away with being gigantic asshats. Then it becomes more and more difficult to differentiate between the "liberal" Christians and the "extremist" Christians.

[BigGiant]

SmileyEagle:

I think you miss that folks that answer those polls are in a public setting when doing so.

I sincerely believe that most people are very tolerant and rational when they aren't being influenced by "the mob".

The problem is that (as Ghel) pointed out, more folks need to stand up for what they actually believe and let their voices be heard.

I think most people will "toe the party line" when asked, even if they don't really agree with the party line for fear of persecution.

So, exit polls, or polls of any kind should be taken with more than just a grain of salt.

[smileyeagle1021]

I think you miss that folks that answer those polls are in a public setting when doing so.

I sincerely believe that most people are very tolerant and rational when they aren't being influenced by "the mob".

The problem is that (as Ghel) pointed out, more folks need to stand up for what they actually believe and let their voices be heard.

I think that you miss the point that my grandma made much more eloquently than I can.
I don't give a fuck what you believe, it's what you do that it important.

I could care less if you rationally think that homosexuality is fine... that's peachy... when you're action is to go to the ballot box to nullify my rights. At that point what you believe doesn't make a rats ass bit of difference.
To paraphrase from Kingdom of Heaven, "when you face God you cannot saying 'but I was ordered thusly', only you can be responsible for your actions."

[Ghel]

I don't give a fuck what you believe, it's what you do that it important.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. Beliefs are important because they inform actions. What goes on in the privacy of one's own mind is unimportant until it spills out in words or actions. When beliefs intrude on other people, then they become important.

I recall an analogy somebody made about the influence beliefs have on people's lives. He said that having faith is like taking your eyes off the road when you're driving. You might not cause an accident the first time you do it, but the more often you do it, the more likely it is that you're going to crash.

"when you face God you cannot saying 'but I was ordered thusly', only you can be responsible for your actions."

I'd like to suggest a different twist to this. The media is full of examples of people who do atrocious things because they think that is what their God wants them to do. They attempt to shirk the responsibility by claiming they were following their God's orders.