Something out of interest...

[fireheart17]

Just a question I thought I'd pose to everyone.

OK, I'm referring more or less to controversial issues-abortion, gay marriage etc. where the Christian groups are trying to interfere. Notice I said Christian-I didn't say religious.

Even though IIRC, both Australia and the US are secular countries, why is it that it only seems to be the Christian groups lobbying for influence, yet religions such as Islam (which is very against homosexuality in general AFAIK), Buddhism (I don't think it cares), Hinduism etc. don't attempt to influence others. Where does it say in the Bible that they should be forcing/attemtping to convert others?

[Rapscallion]

Um, have you seen any of the protests against free speech in London reported from a year or two back?

There are islamic preachers of hate, and our gubmint has been cracking down (allegedly) on them. They're very careful about what they say, but every so often one of them steps over the line and we deport the fuck.

I don't know where it says in the bible that you should attempt conversion, but apparently witnessing is the term involved. You'd need an answer from a more religious person than me for that one. However, it certainly does happen, with missionaries to countries with brown people and door-to-door knockers trying to convert you. (I'm usually doing overtime when they come around - hah!).

Rapscallion

[elsporko]

I'm not sure if you're aware of the middle east, but yeah, Muslims try to influence people politically. Kind of do it alot.



And of course the major religious groups in a nation will be more visible then smaller religious groups.

[HYHYBT]

On the first part, it's mostly numbers. Minorities, including religious minorities, tend to want to be left alone and allowed to do as they wish; majorities, especially large religious ones, tend to think everybody else needs to do the same. For example, sure, Muslims in the US mostly keep quiet, but there aren't that many of them and they're scattered around. Countries that are primarily Muslim, as I understand it, tend to be run under Sharia law.

For that matter, I don't think we'd have nearly the religious freedom we do in the US if Christians hadn't been so divided by the time the Bill of Rights came along, and if England hadn't relatively recently gone through so much trouble over the combination of church and state before the colonies were founded. Of course, those two are related...

Along the same lines, I think it would be wise for churches to start minding their own business *now,* for their own long-term survival. I don't see any reason to think atheism is any different than religion in this respect: for now, it's a growing minority, mostly wanting to be left alone and not have religion pushed on it, but the larger groups get, the more merely being looks like pushing to them (witness most any argument against gay rights; inevitably someone will call not pretending not to exist "throwing your sexuality in our faces" or "shoving it down our throats.") And I've heard here and there statements that religion should be outlawed, or children shouldn't be exposed to it, etc. Not from many, but it wouldn't surprise me if the 1st Amendment fell, in effect if not in name, when atheism reaches 60-70%. And the more nuisance churches make themselves to be, the more likely that is to happen.

As for the last, mostly-separate sentence: I'm never any good at remembering where stuff is in the Bible, or how it's worded, but it's called the Great Commission. Ah, Google is a help. Matthew 28: 19-20, "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." Notice it says "teach," not "force," but the larger the group, the less its members see the difference.

Yes, I've seen protestors against free speech. Odd how people can think that sawing off the branch they're sitting on is a good idea. But there aren't many of them.

[protege]

Even though IIRC, both Australia and the US are secular countries, why is it that it only seems to be the Christian groups lobbying for influence, yet religions such as Islam (which is very against homosexuality in general AFAIK), Buddhism (I don't think it cares), Hinduism etc. don't attempt to influence others.

Islam has been very quiet since 9/11. They know that they're not "flavor of the month" and don't want the attention.

For example, not far from me, an old elementary school was being renovated and sold off. It was proposed, to turn the school into some sort of Islamic studies center. That was the idea, until fears of "terrorist training camp," 9/11, and having "wackos" here derailed the idea. Nobody wanted that thing here--the majority of people where I live are Christan, and didn't like the idea of that center being built.

Oddly enough, the outrage over it wasn't all that much. In fact, the Muslims who were to run it...didn't even bother to counter-protest. They just went somewhere else. They knew, that if they persisted, it wasn't going to be pretty--tensions were already high because of 9/11, and their actions would have just added fuel to the fire.

[smileyeagle1021]

(witness most any argument against gay rights; inevitably someone will call not pretending not to exist "throwing your sexuality in our faces" or "shoving it down our throats.") And I've heard here and there statements that religion should be outlawed, or children shouldn't be exposed to it, etc. .

To the first, I've had people tell me to keep it in the bedroom for holding my boyfriend's hand, that I'm corrupting their children, that I'm the vilest thing to walk this Earth because I refuse to stay in the closet.
So, in fairness, if Religion were outlawed my reaction would be "well, assholes, what goes around comes around, you tried to make who I am illegal and guess who lost the cultural war."

[crashhelmet]

Just a question I thought I'd pose to everyone.

OK, I'm referring more or less to controversial issues-abortion, gay marriage etc. where the Christian groups are trying to interfere. Notice I said Christian-I didn't say religious.

Even though IIRC, both Australia and the US are secular countries, why is it that it only seems to be the Christian groups lobbying for influence, yet religions such as Islam (which is very against homosexuality in general AFAIK), Buddhism (I don't think it cares), Hinduism etc. don't attempt to influence others. Where does it say in the Bible that they should be forcing/attemtping to convert others?

There are many countries around the world where the people are influenced and controlled by other religions than Christianity. The Middle East and many Asian countries are proof of that. In some of these countries they don't try to influence people to join their religion. They kill them for being infidels.

It doesn't say anywhere in the Bible to force people to Christianity. It may say to go out and spread the Word of God, but it never says to force them or punish them for not converting. Those are acts created by those that use religion to fuel their own desires.

CH

[telecom_goddess]

To the first, I've had people tell me to keep it in the bedroom for holding my boyfriend's hand, that I'm corrupting their children, that I'm the vilest thing to walk this Earth because I refuse to stay in the closet.
So, in fairness, if Religion were outlawed my reaction would be "well, assholes, what goes around comes around, you tried to make who I am illegal and guess who lost the cultural war."

Here here! I agree with you.

I really can't speak for other countries, I'm sure other religions have way more influence in other places. But Christianity I think is the biggest and loudest one, and has the most influence, and is most likely to send missionaries (I hate those people!) and the like. I'm saying this in a more global sense.

[Pagan]

I'm not sure if you're aware of the middle east, but yeah, Muslims try to influence people politically. Kind of do it alot.

Some of their more, um, "vocal" people don't so much protest as blow things up....or try to.

For that matter, I don't think we'd have nearly the religious freedom we do in the US if Christians hadn't been so divided by the time the Bill of Rights came along, and if England hadn't relatively recently gone through so much trouble over the combination of church and state before the colonies were founded. Of course, those two are related...

Not to mention that the framers of the Declaration if Independence, Articles of Confederation, and the Constitution were a bunch of Deists, Theist, and Freemasons. That disturbs people no end.

And the 1st and 2nd schims with the Church of England happened 200-250 years before this. The first one having nothing to do with religion and all to do with Henry VIII's desire for a male heir (among other things).

Not from many, but it wouldn't surprise me if the 1st Amendment fell, in effect if not in name, when atheism reaches 60-70%. And the more nuisance churches make themselves to be, the more likely that is to happen.

Ah, but we need to keep the 1st Amendment to guard against anyone getting the upper hand. Remember, Hitler and Nazi party were once a wing-nut fringe group....and look what they did.

Islam has been very quiet since 9/11. They know that they're not "flavor of the month" and don't want the attention.

No, they just decide to stuff explosives down their pants.

[infinitemonkies]

This is kinda off-topic, but very amusing:

Shortly after 9/11, a business in Philadelphia put up a sign reading "We would rather do business with 1,000 arab terrorists than a single jew".
No one complained.

The business: Goldberg's crematorium.

[smileyeagle1021]

and is most likely to send missionaries (I hate those people!) and the like.

Since Infinitemonkies has already done somewhat of an off topic... my neighbors now love the fact that I'm a big homo... why, because I scare off the Mormons
Had one happen today, getting out of the car with my boyfriend, walked around the front of the complex holding hands, some missionaries that just had gotten out of a car, saw us, looked at each other, and got back in their car and left... one of my neighbors clapped another thanked me for scaring them off before they could harass her again about going inactive.