Some thoughts on Easter Sunday

[HYHYBT]

That's a dumb analogy. My priest woulda laughed at it.

Well, as I said, it's not mine I borrowed it from the "well if you'd really accepted Jesus you'd have turned straight" crowd.

I truly don't see what's wrong with "Love the sinner; hate the sin."

Nothing wrong with it, when used correctly. And the first two steps in using it correctly are making sure that what you are criticizing is, in fact, sinful, and being careful that your love toward others isn't really hatred in disguise.

The issue of sin is between the sinner and God. No one else.

AMEN!!

[Fryk]

As a bit of an off-topic point; the only people unable to be forgiven for sin are the Fallen Angels. Unlike man, they were not given free will, and knew the truth of Grace, yet still defied God. That's why they can never be forgiven, yet man can.

Ok, but if they weren't given free will, how could they have defied God in the first place?

[Rapscallion]

Ok, but if they weren't given free will, how could they have defied God in the first place?

Actually, that's a bloody good point.

Rapscallion

[Ghel]

Ok, but if they weren't given free will, how could they have defied God in the first place?

Is this one of those "divine mysteries" I keep hearing about?

[Hobbs]

Is this one of those "divine mysteries" I keep hearing about?

No, by "free will" we mean being allowed to deny or accept God's grace. Since angels know the existence of God, serve Him and are in His presence, they don't have any reason to deny His divinity. When they sided with Lucifer/Satan/etc, it was the same as say...trying to install one of the Chiefs of Staff as President. Humans have free will because they are allowed to accept or deny God.

[DrFaroohk]

I never liked the "free will" idea. "Either believe in me or be DAMNED FOR ALL ETERNITY! But you have free will, its your choice."

To me that sounds like "Either have sex with me, or I'll blow your fucking head off. Don't worry, its not rape because I'm giving you a choice."

[Hobbs]

Well, you can see it that way, but that's not what it's like at all

[cewfa]

But, Hobbs, that is precisely how the Christian church works. God might give us free will, but the leaders and members of the church don't.

Thank God that God is really in charge.

[Fryk]

So free will=not being sure God exists or not? You said the reason angels don't have free will is because they already know God exists.

[crashhelmet]

So free will=not being sure God exists or not? You said the reason angels don't have free will is because they already know God exists.

Free Will is a matter of debate. Some verses in the Bible say that we have it, others say we are "predestined." I think it's a matter of semantics.

God gives us the Free Will in the right to make our own decisions, stemming all the way back to Adam and Eve (or even Lillith, depending on your faith). Those decisions we make are like a flowchart or "Choose your Own Adventure" story laid out for us. I believe the predestination comes in where God already has those next chapters written out, should we make those decisions.

Getting back to the original question though, God knows and understands that because of this "Free Will" he's given us, not everyone will choose to believe. Some will require more proof or evidence. Because of this understanding, we have the opportunity for Salvation. We have the choice. Believe and goto Heaven or deny and goto Hell.

The Angels couldn't hide behind not knowing for sure of His true existence. To make matters worse, they openly defied him and tried to overthrow him.

So, the "Free Will" that we have is the ability to make decisions, good or bad, and repent for them later. That's an option the Angels do not have.

CH

[Hobbs]

But, Hobbs, that is precisely how the Christian church works. God might give us free will, but the leaders and members of the church don't.

Thank God that God is really in charge.

Which Christian church are you talking about? Again, your inability to make distinction clouds the issue.

Thanks CH, that's a pretty good explanation.

[Fryk]

So, the "Free Will" that we have is the ability to make decisions, good or bad, and repent for them later. That's an option the Angels do not have.

CH

So then we're back to the angels not having the option to make decisions or choose. Then how did they rebel?

[Hobbs]

So then we're back to the angels not having the option to make decisions or choose. Then how did they rebel?

You're arguing semantics. Yes they have the physical ability to rebel, but they don't have the spiritual ability/justification. As I meant to explain in my analogy of replacing the President with a Chief of Staff; we have the ability (maybe) to do that, but regardless, even if we think we're right, it's still wrong because we're usurping lawful authority.


*By "we" I mean the hypothetical military coup.

[Ghel]

Getting back to the original question though, God knows and understands that because of this "Free Will" he's given us, not everyone will choose to believe. Some will require more proof or evidence. Because of this understanding, we have the opportunity for Salvation. We have the choice. Believe and goto Heaven or deny and goto Hell.

This bothers me, and here's why: there's about as much evidence for the existence of leprechauns as there is for the existence of the Christian God. It's insulting to tell someone that they will be punished for denying the existence of something that, as far as we can tell, doesn't exist.

Also, choosing to believe seems incorrect, to me. You might figure out what you believe. You might be swayed by evidence or arguments. But you can't choose to believe something that you don't agree with.

[Hobbs]

That's the reason why it's called faith and not fact.

But you can't choose to believe something that you don't agree with.

Well, duh. If you don't agree with it, of course you won't choose to believe it.