Some thoughts on Easter Sunday

[Fryk]

They don't exist in heaven, they exist in hell or on earth, that is the crux of the problem. And I am talking about the doctrine of Free Will, which speaks to whether or not an individual gets to choose its ultimate fate, as YOU said. If you don't get that choice, then you have been preordained to your ultimate fate.

It's one or the other.

[Ghel]

I think we're talking about the same definition of free will, just in varying degrees: being able to choose what you believe / choose your actions / choose your fate (whether you will go to heaven or hell, if you believe in those places).

Here's the kicker: if you choose to believe something you know to be false, that's hypocritical. The same if you choose to do something that isn't in line with your beliefs.

Fate, from my point of view, is a non-issue. Everyone's ultimate fate is the same: death. It's what you do with your life up to that point that makes all the difference. Anybody can have a positive influence on the world, if they choose. But if the Christian God and Heaven and Hell do exist, and God punishes those who lead good lives but didn't believe in him, then he is an evil tyrant in the extreme.

[Hobbs]

They don't exist in heaven, they exist in hell or on earth, that is the crux of the problem. And I am talking about the doctrine of Free Will, which speaks to whether or not an individual gets to choose its ultimate fate, as YOU said. If you don't get that choice, then you have been preordained to your ultimate fate.

It's one or the other.

Why are you saying Angels don't exist in Heaven. From what form of Scripture have you based this on? I'm sure that consensus is that angels exist in Heaven. They can't die either, so there's no 'afterlife' for them to go too, which is what Heaven and Hell is for us.

[Fryk]

Not angels, Hobbs. Demons. Sorry, I overpronouned :: )

[Hobbs]

Then in your case, angels became corrupted the moment they defied God and tried to overthrow him. It's like being sent to Leavenworth for trying to stage a coup.

[Ghel]

So do you think that angels/demons in Hell have it better or worse than humans? Since they know God exists (they don't have to take it on faith) and are thus being punished for rebelling rather than not believing.

[HYHYBT]

I don't generally worry over the exact natures of angels and demons, or Heaven and Hell; a strong preference for one over the other is enough. But as I understand it, they'd be better off in Hell than we would, because it was made for them and not for us.

[Hobbs]

Exactly. Hell didn't exist until the Angels rebelled and were cast into Perdition.

[Fryk]

So how is it that the actions of angels, who KNEW with verifyable proof that God exists, and the actions of humans, who have NO verifyable proof, are punished with the same severity? That seems extremely unfair to me.

[Hobbs]

For angels, it's a punishment because they are ethereal beings and are thus separated from God's light. Similarly, humans who don't accept God are separated from Him. In my opinion; God realizes you don't like Him, so why would he put you somewhere where you'd live with Him forever?

[Ghel]

What about people who have never heard of or have no concept of a god? Aborigines, infants, the severely retarded? They've never heard any of the various concepts of god. They can't accept something they've never heard of. They can't dislike him. Does he send them to hell? Or do they get a "Get Out of Hell Free" card?

[Fryk]

That's exactly my point, Ghel. AND, how does, "I don't know if God exists, I seek proof of this claim," equate to not liking him? And how does it lead to the same punishment as "I HATE GOD! I WISH TO OVERTHROW HIM AND RULE IN HIS PLACE!!!!!!!"?

[Hobbs]

Denying God=not liking him.

[Fryk]

See, that's faulty logic right there. How does denying someone=not liking them? One does not necessarily follow the other. And how does a lifetime of maybe 100 years, max, lead to a punishment period of infinity years?

[Rageaholic]

I have to chime in. The main problem I have with Christian thought is that we're supposed to put "god" above everything else we can see, feel, and touch. This to me is impossible because god expects us mere humans to gamble on faith. Unlike people, god isn't right there telling us what to do, we're suppposed to put our faith in some 2000 year old book that basically needs to be studied to be understood. It doesn't help that there's so many interprations of the bible.

So it's pretty obvious that we'd be confused at to who god even is. Yet because we don't really "know" who god is outside of books and a few personal accounts, it's hard to put him above everything we do know. And that's OUR fault that we don't know god? WTF?