Westboro hits close to home

[Hobbs]

Ghel, I really don't understand your logic here.

[Nyoibo]

That if they all follow the same teachings there is something fundamentally wrong with the source material.

[Hobbs]

That if they all follow the same teachings there is something fundamentally wrong with the source material.

Not necessarily. Have you ever had a historical debate over something? Even though there's factual evidence, there's roughly half a dozen different interpretations of the same source material.

Examples of which would include the Mexican American War, the American Civil War, the Mexican Civil War, the African Diaspora...just to name a few.

[jedimaster91]

and as my mother would point out, what makes a man inherently more qualified to be a bishop and a woman inherently more qualified to be a Relief Society president?

As my mother would point out, women have the amazing gift of bearing and raising children (show me a biological human male who's done that!). The Lord had to give the men something to do.

In all seriousness, the best answer I can give you is admittedly a personal one that has no basis in cold hard "fact." I'm also not too sure I can put it into words. There was a time I didn't understand why the men held the Priesthood and women didn't and it bothered me. After much study and contemplation I came to the conclusion it's because women don't need it to stay close to God. For whatever reason, the men need a little extra help. Again, this is insanely personal and not something I would expect anyone else to understand. Not entirely sure why I feel compelled to share it either since I know it's going to get trashed, but there ya go.

Sadly, as of yet, you aren't having your way. Sadly, a lot of high level members in Utah share the feelings of those who would commit these heinous acts.

Holding an opinion on something--even a controversial or unpopular one--is one thing. Being destructive with said opinion is quite another.

How can men and women be equal if women can't make decisions that affect the whole church? Can't be bishops? Can't lead church services? To rephrase what Smiley said, what makes men qualified for these positions that at the same time makes women unqualified for the same positions?

Many of the General Authorities of the Church are women and they do make decisions that affect the whole church. Quite frankly, the RS pres holds just as much sway in the ward as the Bishop does. I've seen this phenomenon happening in my own ward that when the women get on board with a project, tremendous progress is made. If that's not power, I don't know what is. But when it comes down to it, unless one has a personal understanding of the role of the family and its members within the church, it's always going to seem like gender discrimination.

And after having been both a Bishop's daughter and a Bishop's wife, take my word for it, you don't want to be the Bishop. I've seen how draining the calling is. Definitely rewarding in countless ways, but draining.

Is this your only objection to violence against gays?

Oh, heavens no. But I learned a long time ago that a legal issue gets a lot farther than a moral one. Besides that, they're not displaying a very Christ-like attitude, are they?

[smileyeagle1021]

Oh, heavens no. But I learned a long time ago that a legal issue gets a lot farther than a moral one. Besides that, they're not displaying a very Christ-like attitude, are they?

Are you talking about homosexuals/allies?
Because if that's the case, I'll point out that in my life I have met ONE gay person who I doubt would meet Christ (the man, not necessarily the deity he has supposedly become) approval, I can't say the same about many of the Christians I have met. Someone's ability to be "Christ-like" (using your terms, a damned decent human being using other terms) has nothing to do with a persons orientation or religion.

[Red Panda]

Originally Posted by smileyeagle1021 View Post
There has not been a single hate crime committed in Utah that was NOT committed by a Christian, with the majority being of the Mormon variety.

I am sure there has been at least one non-Christian who has committed a hate crime in the state, even if you have to go back to the days of Indians to find it.

Besides a few members of a group doing something bad does not make the group bad. There are gays who are HIV positive and have unprotected sex in order to try to spread the disease. Does this mean all gay men do this or support it? Of course not.

[jackfaire]

Besides a few members of a group doing something bad does not make the group bad. There are gays who are HIV positive and have unprotected sex in order to try to spread the disease. Does this mean all gay men do this or support it? Of course not.

While I agree with your point the example you use doesn't work as people choose to be a memeber of religion not their sexuality.

[smileyeagle1021]

I am sure there has been at least one non-Christian who has committed a hate crime in the state, even if you have to go back to the days of Indians to find it.

Besides a few members of a group doing something bad does not make the group bad. There are gays who are HIV positive and have unprotected sex in order to try to spread the disease. Does this mean all gay men do this or support it? Of course not.

Arguing semantics, if the hate crime was committed back in the time of the Indians, then Utah wouldn't be a state therefor it would not have happened in Utah
That said, if we want to be more specific, in modern history, hate crimes against homosexuals have all been committed by Christians.

Also, a counterpoint to your argument. There is nothing about homosexuality that promotes or even condones the intentional spread of disease... there are several holy texts within Christianity that not only condone, not only promote, but MANDATE attacks against homosexuals (If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. is just one example)

* quote taken from the Official King James Bible, the most prevalently distributed translation of the Bible, also what many conservative christians (especially LDS) view to be the only valid translation.

[AdminAssistant]

* quote taken from the Official King James Bible, the most prevalently distributed translation of the Bible, also what many conservative christians (especially LDS) view to be the only valid translation.

They do realize that James I was gay, don't they? Cuz that's kinda funny.

[Red Panda]

Utah was a territory for nearly 50 years. It would have been a state sooner except for the strong anti Morman hatred and it wasn't until anti Morman laws were passed. The group you say committe all hate crimes was in fact the victim of hate crimes itself. Not to say they are justified by that, just pointing out that they didn't committe these crimes against themselves. Also, you know, indians. Its rare but indian on indian or indian on white people crimes do occure. Just pointing out how silly it is to believe only christians committe hate crimes

While I agree with your point the example you use doesn't work as people choose to be a memeber of religion not their sexuality.

You do choose to try to give people aids

[crashhelmet]

That said, if we want to be more specific, in modern history, hate crimes against homosexuals have all been committed by Christians.

So you're saying that there hasn't been a single one committed by a Muslim, Jew, or Atheist? Do you have stats to back that up?

CH

[dendawg]

You do choose to try to give people aids

Holy homophobic strawman fail, Batman!

Seriously, do some research. Homosexual intercourse is not the only method of transmitting the HIV virus. My proof? Magic Johnson and Ryan White!

[jackfaire]

You do choose to try to give people aids

Then judging all Christians for being Christian is like judging all people with AIDS that are trying to give it to other people for being part of the group of people trying to give others AIDS.

[Boozy]

Holy homophobic strawman fail, Batman!

You need to go back and read Red Panda's previous post in which she says:

Besides a few members of a group doing something bad does not make the group bad. There are gays who are HIV positive and have unprotected sex in order to try to spread the disease. Does this mean all gay men do this or support it? Of course not.

She's just defending her example as a valid comparison.

[smileyeagle1021]

So you're saying that there hasn't been a single one committed by a Muslim, Jew, or Atheist? Do you have stats to back that up?

CH

At least not in Utah... hell, some of our best allies in Utah are the Muslims, Jews, and Atheists who have also been discriminated against.