Not Christian

[Nyoibo]

The problem with that is the Big Three. If you follow everything that Christianity, Islam, and Judaism says,

Those would be the abrahamic religions.

[Fryk]

I belong to what you refer to as the "Big Three" and I leave well enough alone. Don't mind me none whether some poor bastard gets his holy's or not.

The Book of Ezekiel, Chapter 3, Verse 18:
"When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand."

Sorry 'bout the KJV, but you get the point.

[Hyena Dandy]

The problem with that is the Big Three. If you follow everything that Christianity, Islam, and Judaism says, you also have to believe in Hell for unbelievers. When you look at them in that light, it becomes downright evil (to them) to not try to convert someone to your religion, in order to save them from Hell. That's why they can't leave people alone.

I believe that I can proselytize without pamphlets etc. I became Catholic because I had a very dear Catholic friend. I believe I can do the same for others. I believe that if I conduct myself respectfully, graciously, and don't get pushy, but say I'm Catholic if the conversation swings that way, then I'm more likely to get someone to convert than if I got up in their face and yelled at them.

And the two most important things in Christianity (According to the Bible) are to love God and love your neighbors (by that presumably it means fellow human beings). I believe that those are of equal importance, so I do both.

Also: Judaism doesn't have a hell.

[jackfaire]

At the local county fair every year there is this booth where you can take a "test" to see if your going to Heaven.

They harassed me until finally one day i said sure. Basically the test was you read a small thing about Jesus and they asked two questions, 1) do you believe Jesus is the Savior and 2) Do you want to go to Heaven.

I said I equated Jesus to Buddha a great guy that taught about peace and love and others later probably twisted it to be about heaven and hell.

They understood that and then argued against it then moved onto question 2. I think it broke their brains when I said that no I did not wish to go to Heaven.

They looked utterly shocked then finally asked why. I said because the way they describe it sounded deathly boring and I would rather much explore other parts of creation. They then continued looking at me like I had a third head.

I think they don't think much of their God and that Heaven, Hell and Earth is all that he is capable of.

[BigGiant]

The problem with that is the Big Three. If you follow everything that Christianity, Islam, and Judaism says, you also have to believe in Hell for unbelievers. When you look at them in that light, it becomes downright evil (to them) to not try to convert someone to your religion, in order to save them from Hell. That's why they can't leave people alone.

I would argue that converting people isn't "God's will".

Basically folks are told to "spread the word of God".

It has been misinterpreted to mean, "make everyone into believers."

If you take the idea of spreading the word along with the basic tenant of free will, rationally I'd interpret that to mean, "educate folks and let them make their own choice."

The problem lies (to me) with folks taking it way too far. Look, what American has never heard "the word of God"? I mean really, unless you are from another country or were home schooled and raised with a different religion and were completely cut off from friends or any sort of media, how would you make it to the age of 13 without knowing the basics about the dominant religion in this country?

So really, the word has been spread. I've heard it, I've made my choice. Leave me alone.

[jedimaster91]

Sorry, I wasn't trying to say that spirits MUST exist like chairs must exist, I was trying to explain how I believe in spirits without considering it against my religion.

Does Catholisism teach that spirits don't exist? I'm not Catholic, so I'm curious. Personally, I believe the veil between this world and the next is very thin in some places and some times.

Ghel, have you ever sat in a church pew? It absolutely WOULD hurt to get some church in you...

Yeah, the pews aren't all that comfy. Ours put my back at a really weird angle (for me) when I sit down.

The problem with that is the Big Three. If you follow everything that Christianity, Islam, and Judaism says, you also have to believe in Hell for unbelievers. When you look at them in that light, it becomes downright evil (to them) to not try to convert someone to your religion, in order to save them from Hell. That's why they can't leave people alone.

Would you want those close to you to burn in eternal torment? I admit, there are some people I know I would gleefully roast marshmallows over, but not my close friends and family. The thing is, the overzealous types forget that the people they're trying to convert still have a choice. Which brings me to my next point....

I would argue that converting people isn't "God's will".

Basically folks are told to "spread the word of God".

It has been misinterpreted to mean, "make everyone into believers."

If you take the idea of spreading the word along with the basic tenant of free will, rationally I'd interpret that to mean, "educate folks and let them make their own choice."

There is at least one religion that teaches there was a great war in Heaven before the world was. And that war was over free will. If free will was important enough that God himself allowed a war to be fought over it, who are we as mere mortals to try and take it away from our fellow men?

I believe that I can proselytize without pamphlets etc. I became Catholic because I had a very dear Catholic friend. I believe I can do the same for others. I believe that if I conduct myself respectfully, graciously, and don't get pushy, but say I'm Catholic if the conversation swings that way, then I'm more likely to get someone to convert than if I got up in their face and yelled at them.

That's what got my parents interested in Mormonism. A friend of their's in the Scout troop got them started. I also know many people who have noticed how a friend conducted themselves and ended up converting later on. You definitely catch more flies with honey than vinegar. It wouldn't hurt Christianity's reputation either if more people remembered that.



ETA: For what it's worth, I believe that eventually all paths will merge together, so it doesn't matter so much which one you start on.

[Hobbs]

ETA: For what it's worth, I believe that eventually all paths will merge together, so it doesn't matter so much which one you start on.

Ah, the old Buddhist maxim; "From the Lesser can be found the Greater." I always liked that one.

Note: I'm paraphrasing because I don't have the book in front of me. But it pretty much says that.

[Kheldarson]

Does Catholisism teach that spirits don't exist? I'm not Catholic, so I'm curious. Personally, I believe the veil between this world and the next is very thin in some places and some times.

We don't believe in ghosts or spirits. It is considered an affront to God by not trusting in Him and His omnipotence. Mostly, why should there be ghosts when God sends the souls to one of three places? None would escape His notice. But that's mostly a trite summary, but the full explanation would be a bit longish, so here's the section from the Catechism that covers the question.

Would you want those close to you to burn in eternal torment? I admit, there are some people I know I would gleefully roast marshmallows over, but not my close friends and family. The thing is, the overzealous types forget that the people they're trying to convert still have a choice. Which brings me to my next point....
There is at least one religion that teaches there was a great war in Heaven before the world was. And that war was over free will. If free will was important enough that God himself allowed a war to be fought over it, who are we as mere mortals to try and take it away from our fellow men?

We can't. Although even the Church still argues over the relation between free will and grace. It's one of the Mysteries of God. Actually a fairly fascinating historical study (yay undergrad thesis), but mostly boils down to God loves us, and wants us to be with Him, but doesn't want to force us like the angels are essentially forced. He wants somebody to choose him willingly. But that's why we Christians are called to evangelize. Although I agree with the whole "be an example" route and not the "be preachy" route.

[jedimaster91]

We don't believe in ghosts or spirits. It is considered an affront to God by not trusting in Him and His omnipotence. Mostly, why should there be ghosts when God sends the souls to one of three places? None would escape His notice.

That was what always bothered me about ghosts and spirits. I think our religions are very similar in that we believe there is a definite place for our souls to go after we die. This goes into rather deep doctrine, but I was taught once that the Spirit World is here on Earth. It just exists on a different plane than we do, and sometimes the line between the two worlds gets blurred. Which would defintely explain hauntings.

Don't ask me where that comes from, though, cuz I don't know. It just seems to be one of those bits of doctrine a lot of people know about but no one can remember where it came from.

We can't. Although even the Church still argues over the relation between free will and grace. It's one of the Mysteries of God. Actually a fairly fascinating historical study (yay undergrad thesis), but mostly boils down to God loves us, and wants us to be with Him, but doesn't want to force us like the angels are essentially forced. He wants somebody to choose him willingly. But that's why we Christians are called to evangelize. Although I agree with the whole "be an example" route and not the "be preachy" route.

My understanding of grace is that we will all be resurrected to our perfect forms when Christ comes again. However, where we end up after judgement depends on our works.

[Kheldarson]

Your philosophy on spirits sounds interesting, but definitely on a different path than Catholicism.

Either way, I'd love to hear more some time.

As for the second, grace in this case is more like the blessings God gives us in order to do good. The question of the time was whether or not God's desire for us to do good overrode our desire to do as we choose. The end decision was on a doctrine called media scientia, or middle science, which says God knows all possibilities (so is omniscient), but we can still choose our own route. He just sends us grace to help us choose the right one. We choose whether or not to utilize that grace.