Mosque near Ground Zero

[smileyeagle1021]

Ok, let's say it was 19 Christian guys who crashed those planes.

but but but... Christians would never do such a thing

technically there is some truth to that, christian extremists tend to prefer a more targeted approach... if their problem is with abortions they murder abortion doctors and bomb the clinics, if their problem is with gay people they bomb gay bars (okay, so that hasn't happened recently... well, neither has bombing an abortion clinic, but lets not forget 9/11 was 9 years ago) or find a gay couple's house to vandalize or attack a gay couple. If the problem is with the government they will attack a government building. There isn't much (insert country here) is corrupt so we will two buildings we think symbolize that nation type attacks.

[Salesmonkey]

I'm wondering just what it is the wingnuts want the government to do about this, anyway. Even if the city, state, or federal government stepped in, or found some procedural way to delay this, they would only be setting themselves up for a lawsuit. The Founding Fathers set up this country with a whole lot of protections for people being able to develop THEIR OWN property in pretty much any ECONOMIC way they chose. The politicians who are flacking this issue are just trying to win points with their prejudiced and rascist elector base. Hypocrites like Republican Senator John Cornyn of Texas will whine and cry about the evil government oppressing their religion - until they want the evil government to opress somebody else's religion.

[Crazedclerkthe2nd]

Of course not. People would be QUICK to point out they are extremists, so don't judge us all by their actions.

EXACTLY! Double standard anyone?

On a semi related note, I believe that if the Mosque is built, someone or a group of someones will firebomb/shoot up/attack the place one way or another.

[joe hx]

Whoever owns the building has the right to make it a Mosque/civic center, or whatever. People who don't like that have a right to say so.

[Anthony K. S.]

A short time ago, I made the colossal mistake of reading a thread on this subject in an unmoderated Internet forum.

(Sigh . . . Yes, I knew better.)

It was like watching a 20-vehicle collision on a highway. No matter how horrified you are, you just can't seem to pull your eyes away.

One person talked about how 3,000 innocent Americans died "because of a stupid religion born in some desert hellhole that hasn't evolved in 14 centuries." Along the same lines, another person suggested that we should "ask a little girl whose father was killed if she likes the idea of the religion that murdered her father being given the opportunity to build a mosque near his grave."

The religion killed those people, apparently . . . Not a small group of Muslim extremists, not even Muslims in general. It was the religion itself that was responsible.

In fact, a couple of people on that board cited several passages from the Koran and insisted that the religion was to blame because Muslim terrorists were merely doing what their sacred texts commanded them to do.

Even worse, there were several people who argued that this wasn't a mosque at all. They insisted that it was actually a victory monument . . . I wish I was making this up. These people seriously claimed that Muslims were trying to construct a landmark celebrating their victory over Americans on September 11, 2001.

"This is an act of conquest," stated one person. "Everywhere Islam wins, it builds great mosques."

Another person made several comments about how the "politically correct useful idiots" were making things much easier for Osama bin Laden, by supporting things like this construction.

There was more, but you get the idea.

Besides the subject matter, another thing that frightened me was how articulate a lot of these people were.

They weren't randomly spouting out hateful bigotry. Quite often, they cited historical events and religious texts to back up their statements. It looked like they put a good deal of time and effort into developing their views, including cherry-picking history and the Koran so that they could make their bigotry look informed. If such a thing even exists.

It is just frightening.

After reading that thread, I drank some hot cocoa to calm my stomach, and then logged on to Fratching just so I could thank everybody here for being so reasonable about this issue. At least, there are still a few forums on the Internet populated by sane people.

(Although, to be fair, there were some sane people on that forum as well, who spoke out against this nonsense. They just seemed to be outnumbered by the lunatics.)

[Rapscallion]

All praise gratefully received Boozy does a fantastic job here, on a more serious note.

Lunatics are generally loud.

Rapscallion

[Gravekeeper]

It should not be a debate. The US has constitutionally protected freedom of religion. That should be the end of the argument. You can't cherry pick the parts of the Constitution you like or apply it only to those you feel deserve it. Nor should the majority have any say over the rights of a minority. ( Prop 8 ). Hell, the whole point of having rights is to prevent the majority from trampling the rights of the minority.

If you want to revoke an Amendment from someone because a small group of extremists within them did something heinous, well then you better start rounding up all the guns too. I mean obviously if one person went on a shooting spree with a gun, than all gun owners are mass murderers, right?

The Qu'ran does not call for terrorism anymore than the Bible does. Which is to say neither of them do. Hell, the Qu'ran specifically forbids harming innocents. Extremists in Islam are the same as extremists in Christianity: They're misinterpreting and/or clinging to a handful of verses they think justifies their actions. ( I'm looking at you, Leviticus. )

Americans don't seem to understand that Islam is the second largest religion in the world clocking in at over 1 billion people and the vast majority of them seem to get along just fine without having to blow people up. -.-

Just as most Christians get along fine without having to shoot abortion doctors, persecute homosexuals and molest choir boys.

[Mikkel]

Americans don't seem to understand that Islam is the second largest religion in the world clocking in at over 1 billion people and the vast majority of them seem to get along just fine without having to blow people up. -.-

I hope that the Muslim Americans at least understand this .

[smileyeagle1021]

In fact, a couple of people on that board cited several passages from the Koran and insisted that the religion was to blame because Muslim terrorists were merely doing what their sacred texts commanded them to do.

That is when I would start quoting bible verses that command the killing of homosexuals, those who aren't virgins when they are married, those who eat shell fish, those who wear mixed fabrics, those who... well, you get the idea

Just because religious texts call for something does not mean the majority will actually follow through with it, or even for that matter believe those versus apply.

[linguist]

for everyone who goes on about how this is going up on "hallowed ground," i'd invite you to take a look at this.

for those who don't feel like checking the link, it's a photo essay of businesses and people exactly the same distance from ground zero as the islamic center going about their daily business. its point is that life goes on, and muslims are as deserving of being a part of that life as anyone else.

[HYHYBT]

A short time ago, I made the colossal mistake of reading a thread on this subject in an unmoderated Internet forum.

Same here, all the same sorts of remarks... and one of the more vocal guys making them was, nearly simultaneously but in separate posts, comparing building a mosque to promoting pedophilia AND saying that American Muslims are moderate and don't support violence. And, of course, denied, without meaningful explanation, that these positions were in any way conflicting.

Hypocritically, considering it was a (supposedly) Christian site, arguments along the lines of "I value my religious freedom far too much to deny anyone else's" are remarkably unpopular there.

[draggar]

Besides the subject matter, another thing that frightened me was how articulate a lot of these people were.

They weren't randomly spouting out hateful bigotry. Quite often, they cited historical events and religious texts to back up their statements. It looked like they put a good deal of time and effort into developing their views, including cherry-picking history and the Koran so that they could make their bigotry look informed. If such a thing even exists.

It is just frightening.

This is how extremist leaders get into power. Osama bin Laden is very smart and is probably very well educated in the Muslim faith, maybe even the Christian and Jewish faiths ( to be able to draw up comparisons etc.).

It's the educated people who can get the masses lf lesser educated people to follow them in flocks. Luckily, the people on the boards are using their keyboards and electrons to convey their opinions, not suicide bombers and guns.

[Crazedclerkthe2nd]

Besides the subject matter, another thing that frightened me was how articulate a lot of these people were.

They weren't randomly spouting out hateful bigotry. Quite often, they cited historical events and religious texts to back up their statements. It looked like they put a good deal of time and effort into developing their views, including cherry-picking history and the Koran so that they could make their bigotry look informed. If such a thing even exists.

It is just frightening.

After reading that thread, I drank some hot cocoa to calm my stomach, and then logged on to Fratching just so I could thank everybody here for being so reasonable about this issue. At least, there are still a few forums on the Internet populated by sane people.

(Although, to be fair, there were some sane people on that forum as well, who spoke out against this nonsense. They just seemed to be outnumbered by the lunatics.)

Sounds a lot like Glenn Beck style commentary. Seemingly intelligent and well educated, regardless of how crazy it may be.

[draggar]

So what about St Nicholas' Church?

The only non-WTC building immediately destroyed during the Sept 11 attacks.

The port authority agrees to $20M to help rebuild the church - yet that never happened.

BTW - this is a Greek orthodox church.

[the_std]

I'd like to share this piece by Keith Olbermann with you guys.

I will admit that my opinion of American sensationalism and the deafeningly loud vocal minority your country seems to run on these days makes me sad, scared and very, very distrustful of America as a whole. The sentiments I've seen on this subject and others colour my view of your country. Most of the people my age (early 20s) that I talk to see America as a once-great country struggling against itself, looking to tear itself apart and, as the younger generation, we are "the future", and that is not a good future to have for America's foreign relations.

However, this video, and others I have seen by the same newscaster, never fail to make me cry. The passion and intelligence shown in these topics, minds flung open to let in those who have suffered against prejudice and attack, gives me hope for your country. It lets me, and the rest of the world, know you are not a nation bowing down to idiocy and mob-rule. If only this man, and others like him, could be the face other countries see, instead of the fear-mongering, hate-teaching talking heads that get so much recognition around the world.

It makes me happy to know that there is hope.