Mosque near Ground Zero

[KnitShoni]

I'd like to share this piece by Keith Olbermann with you guys.

I saw that piece the other day. A friend of mine had posted it on her facebook page. I'd never watched him before, but I loved that piece.

[Sarah Valentine]

So what about St Nicholas' Church?

The only non-WTC building immediately destroyed during the Sept 11 attacks.

The port authority agrees to $20M to help rebuild the church - yet that never happened.

BTW - this is a Greek orthodox church.

They had $20 million to rebuild the church, and they're dragging their feet, why? If they had that money they should have been done with it already.

[protege]

Of course, isn't the same port authority that was trying to sue the tenants of the former WTC over rent? Greedy bastards...

[crazylegs]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

So if the government cannot prohibit the free activity of a religion what right does a private citizen have to prevent others from celebrating their own religion?

[Rapscallion]

Oddly enough, more than congress if they own the property. Freedom of speech is protected by the gubmint in the US, as I understand it, but private arenas (such as forums) can ban certain terms or expressions as they see fit.

Am I anywhere near right?

Rapscallion

[KnitShoni]

Oddly enough, more than congress if they own the property. Freedom of speech is protected by the gubmint in the US, as I understand it, but private arenas (such as forums) can ban certain terms or expressions as they see fit.

Am I anywhere near right?

Rapscallion

That's right. However, since the people building the Islamic center own the property outright, the people complaining don't have any rights to try to prevent them from building there.

[smileyeagle1021]

Raps, you are dead on, that is why if I walk onto Main Street Plaza I must let go of my boyfriend's hand, make no indication of our relationship, make no pro-gay rights statements within earshot of security or likewise any anti-mormon statements, clothing with logos or phrases the church deems innapropriate are also forbidden. All of this is legal because Main Street Plaza (thanks to the bitch DeeDee, may she burn in hell) sold the property to the church making it private property that the church may do as they see fit.
This is also why companies are permitted to have dress codes, the building is private property and they can regulate those on their property as they see fit.
Hell, if I wanted to I could make a rule that all people entering my house must drop their pants and shout "hail Gaga" and not let anyone into my home otherwise... it would be perfectly constitutional.
Freedom of speech only applies to government restrictions, individuals can voluntarily enter into contracts and agreements to limit their speech all they want.

[Ghel]

That's true to an extent, Smiley. However, there are laws about what employers can and can't do regarding free speech, and there's laws about what banks (for example) can and can't do regarding discrimination as it pertains to lending. Also, there's additional rules if a company is accepting any sort of government funding.

Regarding the building in question, the owners would only have to worry about ordinances that apply to any other building. The city could make an ordinance regarding what types of buildings can be built in what locations, but they can't make it retroactive. Also, if they try to discriminate based on religious grounds, they'll likely have a huge lawsuit on their hands.

This "debate" seems to be playing out mostly in the "court" of public opinion, without any regard for what is legal.

[Mikkel]

Raps, you are dead on, that is why if I walk onto Main Street Plaza I must let go of my boyfriend's hand, make no indication of our relationship, make no pro-gay rights statements within earshot of security or likewise any anti-mormon statements, clothing with logos or phrases the church deems innapropriate are also forbidden.

What can they do to you if you should do something inappropriate with your hands? Fine you or just ask you to stop or leave?
Are there signs to that effect?

Hell, if I wanted to I could make a rule that all people entering my house must drop their pants and shout "hail Gaga" and not let anyone into my home otherwise... it would be perfectly constitutional.

Perhaps, but I bet you wouldn't get many guests that way .

[smileyeagle1021]

What can they do to you if you should do something inappropriate with your hands? Fine you or just ask you to stop or leave?
Are there signs to that effect?



Perhaps, but I bet you wouldn't get many guests that way .

To the first question, they can ask me to leave and if I fail to do so they can report me for trespassing. And yes, there are signs to the effect that the area is private property of the church and that all visitors must follow church behavior guidelines (that is a relatively new delevopment, up until recently the church tried to capitalize on the fact that it looked like a public park... that was until their guards were threatened with assault charges for detaining a couple because the church had failed to provide adequate signage warning that it is private property).

And as far as getting guests that way, I don't doubt that you are correct on that, but I do have friends who think that would be the funniest thing ever and want me to try to get someone to do it just once (double bonus points if I can get Missionaries to go along with it )

[Mikkel]

To the first question, they can ask me to leave and if I fail to do so they can report me for trespassing. And yes, there are signs to the effect that the area is private property of the church and that all visitors must follow church behavior guidelines

It sounds repellent, IANAL but I'm almost sure that a similar rule could never be enforced here.

[Kaylyn]

I swear, my entire family picked up on the "ZOMG terrorists want to set up a center near Ground Zero!!!1!11!" mentality. Despite repeated gentle corrections that it's basically the Muslim equivalent of a YMCA and not a mosque, my comments got ignored in the hype.

I give up. My family are idiots. XD

[Arcade Man D]

Despite repeated gentle corrections that it's basically the Muslim equivalent of a YMCA and not a mosque, my comments got ignored in the hype.

So, they should call it the YMIA (Young Men's Islam Association)?

[Crazedclerkthe2nd]

So, they should call it the YMIA (Young Men's Islam Association)?

...must resist urge to write YMCA parody lyrics...

[Kimmik]

I liked Obama's take on it

especially when he says

The other reason it's important for us to remember, that is we've got millions of Muslim Americans...in this country. They're going to school with our kids. They're our neighbors. They're our friends. They're our coworkers. And when we start acting as if their religion is somehow offensive, what are we saying to them? I've got Muslims who are fighting in Afghanistan in the uniform of the Unites States armed services. They're out there putting their lives on the line for us and we've gotta make sure that we are crystal clear for our sakes and their sakes. They are Americans, and we honor their service, and part of honoring their service is making sure they understand that we don't differentiate between them and us. It's just us. And that is a principle that I think is going to be very important for us to sustain, and I think tomorrow is an excellent time for us to reflect on that.