What is a miracle?

[the_std]

No, because my dreams only happen rarely and cover topics no one but me or close family would know about. I can't believe how disrespectful you are.

Asking you to prove an impossible talent you claim to have is not disrespectful. If the subject matter is so personal and private that it cannot be proven at all, why bring it up? This is a debate site. If you can't back up a claim, if you can't debate a point you've made, and then get yourself all riled up just because some disputes you, maybe you shouldn't bring up these things that are so close to you that you get so offended about it.

[MadMike]

OK guys, enough of the personal attacks! Next person who does it gets an infraction!

[Boozy]

As an addendum to Mike's note, we've had to delete a number of posts in this thread that involved personal attacks (or referred to them).

If anyone's wondering where their post went, that's your answer.

We won't be giving friendly warnings if we have to remove another post in this thread. It will simply be deleted and the member will be infracted.

[Hobbs]

STD, I didn't bring it up as part as discussion, rather, as a bit of conversation. I misread Ghel's previous post and thought it would be a bit of a laugh to share that misunderstanding (I found it ironic, up until I noticed my error, that a skeptic athiest would propose she has precognitive abilities). It would be like a thread on witchcraft/paranormal and I mention, in passing, that my grandmother was a bruja. Of course, there's no evidence, especially since she passed on years ago, so there'd be no way for me to prove it.

To get back OT; even if both could be proven, neither is a miracle.

[Ghel]

It would be like a thread on witchcraft/paranormal and I mention, in passing, that my grandmother was a bruja.

The response to a statement like that is going to depend entirely on the social situation in which it was made. If it was made in casual conversation, especially where I was not wanting to start an argument, I might say, "Really? That's interesting." and change the subject.

If, however, the claim "my grandmother casts (or used to cast) spells" was made at The Amazing Meeting (a skeptics' conference), I expect everyone there would be asking, "Where's your evidence?" And rightly so.

I try not to make statements I can't back up, even in casual conversation. It helps me avoid situations like the one you've gotten yourself into.

[the_std]

STD, I didn't bring it up as part as discussion, rather, as a bit of conversation. I misread Ghel's previous post and thought it would be a bit of a laugh to share that misunderstanding (I found it ironic, up until I noticed my error, that a skeptic athiest would propose she has precognitive abilities)

Since when is a thread, a very heated thread, on a subject where you've been offended multiple times, with your main opponent being a person who is very obviously on a completely opposite side from you, on a debate site... How could all of that possibly be casual conversation? And why would you say anything on a debate site, even if it were casual conversation, that you are not prepared to back it up? This isn't a tea party. Someone questioning you on something you've said, even casually, is expected and encouraged. This is not the first time this has happened with you, either. I wonder if you see a pattern?

[Hobbs]

If, however, the claim "my grandmother casts (or used to cast) spells" was made at The Amazing Meeting (a skeptics' conference), I expect everyone there would be asking, "Where's your evidence?"

I didn't say that. And I certainly wouldn't go to a pretentious meeting like that.

STD, I'm allowed to say what I want, as long as I don't violate the rules, right? Or can I only say things that placate your own world view?

[Ghel]

I have such a hard time with the subject of miracles and/or supernatural things. Every time someone claims that a miracle occurred, or they saw a ghost, or they dreamed of somthing and then it actually happened, I immediately get suspicious. Is there any evidence? Is there a more likely explanation? Does it happen more often than we would expect from random chance?

It's like those ghost hunter type shows. Lock a group of people who believe in ghosts in an old building. In the dark. Deprive them of sleep. It's no surprise that they start to see things.

I'd be much more impressed if they set up cameras and sensors in an empty building, make sure the building was empty and the doors and windows were locked, and THEN if the cameras picked up a clear image of a human or the recorders picked up clear voices, then I might think it's worth investigating further. But all they ever find is vague images or noises. An unexplained light (that might be explainable if they investigated it a little further). A cold wind. Or a sound that they can enhance and modify until it almost sounds like a human voice.

If there actually was some evidence, then it might be worth looking into. Otherwise, it's a waste of our time.

[Hobbs]

I'd be much more impressed if they set up cameras and sensors in an empty building, make sure the building was empty and the doors and windows were locked, and THEN if the cameras picked up a clear image of a human or the recorders picked up clear voices, then I might think it's worth investigating further. But all they ever find is vague images or noises. An unexplained light (that might be explainable if they investigated it a little further). A cold wind. Or a sound that they can enhance and modify until it almost sounds like a human voice.

You pretty much explained the show Ghost Hunters on Sci-Fi. In fact, they usually go out of their way to debunk sightings/evidence and are very cautious to label anything as "supernatural."

[Boozy]

STD, I'm allowed to say what I want, as long as I don't violate the rules, right? Or can I only say things that placate your own world view?

Similarly, STD is allowed to say what she wants, even if it challenges what you said.

[the_std]

STD, I'm allowed to say what I want, as long as I don't violate the rules, right? Or can I only say things that placate your own world view?

So your response to the fact that you've brought up a point of debate for which you have no defense is "I can say whatever I want"? Yes. You can. And when you say whatever you want on a debate site, you're accepting a silent agreement to debate that point. And now you won't debate it, but you will get offended by someone not agreeing to it? Then why post it on a site specifically designed for debate?

[Ghel]

And I certainly wouldn't go to a pretentious meeting like that.

No, instead you have willingly posted on a forum that has plenty of skeptics and people who like to argue. Both groups will expect you to back up any statements that you make. Nothing on this site (except maybe Introductions) fits into the categories of "casual conversation" or "mentioned in passing."

I realize that "my grandmother was a bruja" was hypothetical. So was "my grandmother casts spells." But it didn't appear that "inate sense of precognition" was hypothetical, which is why I asked for evidence.

Additionally, I think that it's irresponsible to have an ability (such as precognition) which you might be able to demostrate actually works, and not do anything to try to prove it. If you can warn your family and help them avoid potential disasters, you have a responsibility to do so. If you can demonstrate your ability beyond what we would expect from chance, you have a responsibility to tell the world that we're wrong, that our worldview needs to be expanded to include this new information (that knowledge of the future is possible).

[Hobbs]

Additionally, I think that it's irresponsible to have an ability (such as precognition) which you might be able to demostrate actually works, and not do anything to try to prove it. If you can warn your family and help them avoid potential disasters, you have a responsibility to do so. If you can demonstrate your ability beyond what we would expect from chance, you have a responsibility to tell the world that we're wrong, that our worldview needs to be expanded to include this new information (that knowledge of the future is possible).

So, I'm irresponsible for having dreams that sometimes come true? Dreams which usually only reflect daily events and never predict the outcomes/causes of major happenings? I'm really astounded that now I have to be responsible when I sleep.

[Ghel]

So, I'm irresponsible for having dreams that sometimes come true? Dreams which usually only reflect daily events and never predict the outcomes/causes of major happenings?

You characterized your dreams as "precognition." That suggests that you think your dreams have some predictive ability - that you're actually seeing the future. If your dreams have significant predictive ability, then yes, you're irresponsible for not sharing them. If your dreams depict things that you think about during the day, like everybody else's, then there's no reason to call them precognition.

[Hobbs]

If your dreams depict things that you think about during the day, like everybody else's, then there's no reason to call them precognition.

Your dreams are about what you do during the day? If all my dreams reflected my actions in the day, I think I'd go insane and kill myself. No offense, but that's boring. I like to think that people dream different things, and that not one person's dreams can be compared to another (which is why I detest dream interpretation books), but que sera, sera.